# "That's so gay" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358 "2009-08-31T14:57:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/141 "2009-09-14T08:39:53Z")
I have seen several British slang sayings change 180 degrees in meaning for no accountable reason within a relatively short time. (“Pants”,originally meant great as in “Pants out here”;its so good that it gave me an erection, being one of them,but it now means that something is total rubbish) So we can’t definitely assume that the "Lame"meaning of Gay comes from homosexual connotations. Just as its a hundred percent certain that when a Brit smokes a “fag” that has no homosexual connotations either. Maybe its time that homosexuals started a new buzz word to refer to themselves . Any attempt to stop kids using gay in its new meaning is an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/142 "2009-09-14T08:53:20Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I have seen several British slang sayings change 180 degrees in meaning for no accountable reason within a relatively short time. > > (“Pants”,originally meant great as in “Pants out here”;its so good that it gave me an erection, being one of them,but it now means that something is total rubbish) > > So we can’t definitely assume that the "Lame"meaning of Gay comes from homosexual connotations. > Just as its a hundred percent certain that when a Brit smokes a “fag” that has no homosexual connotations either. > Maybe its time that homosexuals started a new buzz word to refer to themselves . > > Any attempt to stop kids using gay in its new meaning is an exercise in futility. I wonder if you would be so blasé about it if it were something dear to you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/143 "2009-09-14T12:59:29Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Yeah, but can’t you make the **exact same case** for the word “black”? Possibly, except that that usage of black is hundreds or thousands of years older than “that’s so gay.” And it probably has an independent origin from the skin color description, which “that’s so gay” does not. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/144 "2009-09-15T08:50:55Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > So you do think that “that’s so gay” came from somewhere else than the traditional association of negative qualities with homosexuals, then? > > How do you think “gay” came to mean lame/uncool/stupid? What’s the association? Well, “Gay” was often used in the 19th and early/mid 20th century to refer to things that were colourful and fun and happy- for example, a carnival or fair or Exhibition. Such things required a lot of effort to put together, and if there’s one thing that Kids These Days™ generally abhor, it’s things that require a lot of effort to organise. Also, when you put a lot of effort into something (again, in some circles), that generally makes it extremely unlikely said something will be “Cool” (there’s a Simpsons quote to this effect- “_The whole thing just reeks of effort_”). For something to be “cool”, it generally has to be pulled off with a minimum of effort. It doesn’t work if you have to _try_, in other words. Thus, you have something which is bright and colourful (“Gay”) and has had entirely too much effort put towards it (and is therefore “uncool” or “lame”). So, something that is “Gay” (in that it has entirely too much effort put into it) is going to be “uncool” or “lame”. Hence, one (possible) explanation of how “Gay” came to mean “lame/uncool/stupid”, with nothing to do with homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/145 "2009-09-15T11:11:44Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Hence, one (possible) explanation of how “Gay” came to mean “lame/uncool/stupid”, with nothing to do with homosexuals. It’s possible, just thoroughly implausible. In any case he asked how you think it happened, not ‘make up an alterantive explanation.’ Do you think this is how it happened, or do you think all possible explanations are equally believable? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/146 "2009-09-16T03:00:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s possible, just thoroughly implausible. In any case he asked how you think it happened, not ‘make up an alterantive explanation.’ Do you think this is how it happened, or do you think all possible explanations are equally believable? If I say “Yeah, that’s how I think it happened” will I get piled on? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/147 "2009-09-16T03:19:27Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > If I say “Yeah, that’s how I think it happened” will I get piled on? Soap on a rope Marti…soap on a rope! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/148 "2009-09-16T03:54:05Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > If I say “Yeah, that’s how I think it happened” will I get piled on? If by piled on, you mean “laughed at,” I think it’s a distinct possibility. Mostly because you’re imaging all these modern kids using “gay” in this way that went out of fashion decades earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/149 "2009-09-16T04:51:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But the problem is, it now means homosexual AND stupid. So? There was a time when it meant happy AND homosexual. There’s overlap during the transition. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/150 "2009-09-17T19:04:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I personally think it’s a bunch of people getting too upset about something they can’t fix. There are nearly as many people with OCD as male homosexuals, but I don’t get up in arms about it being used to describe anal retentive people. Well yeah, but people don’t get beaten up, or beaten to death, for having OCD. The term doesn’t have comparable connotations or social stigma. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/151 "2009-09-17T19:12:16Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > “Gay”, on the other hand, originally meant “Happy” (with sub-texts of "Colourful, and more recently “Camp”). The Gay Community themselves appropriated the word, and now they’re getting upset that a large number of people have found _another_ meaning for the word. No. “Gay” had connotations of sexual license at least as far back as the 1700’s, was used to refer to prostitution by the 1880’s if not earlier, and possibly became attached to male homosexuals via male prostitution (gay house = brothel, gay cat = male prostitute, both slang from the 1890’s). ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/152 "2009-09-17T19:19:17Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And where are all these gay teenagers coming from anyway? When I was in high school there were, I think, four gay kids out of 1200 students. Had they tried to tell people not to denigrate things as being “Gay”, they would have been roundly ignored and told to get over it. Standard estimates for the prevalence of homosexuality are on the order of 5-10%. Meaning your school had 60-120 “gay kids”, and the vast majority of them didn’t let on, perhaps for reasons related to the apparent prevalence of people who don’t think “that’s so gay” is offensive in Queensland. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/153 "2009-09-17T19:20:44Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Standard estimates for the prevalence of homosexuality are on the order of 5-10%. I thought that was Kinsey’s figure and that it is now considered to be exaggerated, with a more accurate figure being 2 percent or so. Still, that’s around 24 compared to **Martini Enfield** ’s four. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/154 "2009-09-17T19:28:11Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, I don’t think they would. And that’s the fundamental point of the argument here- “gay” does not automatically equate to “homosexual”. > > You can’t co-opt a word to describe your minority then get annoyed when another group co-opts the same word to mean something you don’t like. **Martini** , sweetie, you seem to have a really tough time grasping this, but let me be the n-th person in this thread to assure you that when someone in America, particularly a teenage boy, uses “gay” to mean “lame”, it is _most certainly_ connected to homosexuality and the association of homosexuality with various undesirable characteristics (effeminate, weak, emo, whatever). If “gay” had never meant “homosexual”, “that’s so gay” would never arisen as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/155 "2009-09-17T19:43:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I thought that was Kinsey’s figure and that it is now considered to be exaggerated, with a more accurate figure being 2 percent or so. Still, that’s around 24 compared to **Martini Enfield** ’s four. It depends on how you define “homosexual”. The prevalence of men who self-identify as homosexual (2-5%) is lower than the prevalence of men who report having had sex with men (4-7%) which is lower than the prevalence of men who report having sexual desire towards men (5-10%) (and there’s lots of fun figuring out how to define or classify “bisexual”). It also matters when and where the studies were done, and how (paper questionnaire, face-to-face, telephone…); generally, the more recent, the more urban, and the more anonymous the setting, the higher the reported prevalence. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/156 "2009-09-17T20:38:35Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > **Martini** , sweetie, you seem to have a really tough time grasping this, but let me be the n-th person in this thread to assure you that when someone in America, particularly a teenage boy, uses “gay” to mean “lame”, it is _most certainly_ connected to homosexuality and the association of homosexuality with various undesirable characteristics (effeminate, weak, emo, whatever). If “gay” had never meant “homosexual”, “that’s so gay” would never arisen as an insult. I think it’s hilarious that not only does “that’s so gay” have no connection whatsoever to being homosexual, but that it’s still the fault of gay people that people are using this word. You know, because they stole that word. That’s OUR word for making fun of you! We need it! I mean, it’s not like teenage guys never use other words to make fun of gays. Like when they call another guy a “Faggot”? They just mean he’s a bundle of sticks. Or an English cigarette. ---
**Author:** ![Shig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Shig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shig)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/157 "2009-09-20T14:46:39Z")
Reading this thread made me wish I hadn’t read this thread. I can’t believe people are actually upset about this. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/158 "2009-09-20T16:58:35Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yeah, because anyone who disagrees with you about the word “gay” is obviously a homophobe. :rolleyes:[sup]2[/sup] Much more to the point is the claim that there were only four homosexuals in a population of 1200 and that they would have been told to “get over it” for taking offense. Regardless whether homosexuality actually runs through 10% of the population or only 3% or 4%, it is pretty clear that among 1200 hundred students there were only four who were known to be homosexual with far more others remaining in the closet–and the attitude of the majority that such people should “get over” insults probably had a lot more to do with why fewer were openly gay. THAT is the point of the comment to which you snidely responded. I have no idea what **Martini Enfield** ’s personal attitudes toward homosexuals may be, today, but he described a situation–looking back to high school–that is indicative of the point of this discussion. ETA: Heck, if homosexuality occurs in only 1% of the population, it seems that two thirds of the gay kids in his school were cowed into the closet. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/159 "2009-09-20T18:19:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I mean, it’s not like teenage guys never use other words to make fun of gays. Like when they call another guy a “Faggot”? They just mean he’s a bundle of sticks. Or an English cigarette. An English cigarette is simply a fag. A faggot would be a sort of meatball/meat dumpling type thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358/160 "2009-09-22T03:06:04Z")
Gay means happy. Gay DOES NOT mean homosexual. When I say “that’s so gay” I’m really saying “that’s so bright and happy and cheerful”… I’m not saying something is homosexual. People haven’t stopped saying “You’re just joshing” or “Quit joshing me”… what about all the Joshes in the world? I bet a homosexual has said “Quit joshing me” at some point in their life… and I guarantee that if I started a campaign against the phrase “joshing” I’d be criticized… but I really don’t give a shit about the phrase “joshing”, even though that is actually my name. I was taught not to let people hurt my feelings with things they say. Secondly… if homosexuals would like to be called “gay” then maybe they should act a little more gay. These series of commercials and this campaign against a phrase is totally not gay. It’s angry. I don’t hate gay people… I don’t hate homosexuals… but most homosexual couples I know and see in public and on TV (Ellen being the one exception) are no more gay than a heterosexual couple. Ellen is gay. And homosexual. She is a gay homosexual. I am a gay heterosexual… who is also very queer. Who wants to start a campaign with me? It shall be called… WORDS THAT DO NOT MEAN “HOMOSEXUAL” Gay DOES NOT mean homosexual! Queer DOES NOT mean homosexual! Rainbows DO NOT stand for homosexuality! …would anyone like to know why I’m so pissed about homosexuals being called gay? You know I’m going to tell you regardless… Because we now live in a day and age where everyone is so deathly afraid of being offended and having their feelings hurt (or just because it’s ever increasingly popular to be politically correct)… the lyrics to a song in my favorite musical were changed. In West Side Story, when Maria is singing about being in love with Tony (I forgot the name of the song… maybe “Oh so pretty”?) she sings “I feel pretty, oh so pretty. I feel pretty, and witty, and GAY”… every modern day version of the song says “I feel pretty, and witty, and BRIGHT”… so that tells me a homosexual got angry and complained and made a mountain out of an anthill… or maybe some really religious person was offended by that word on top of the interracial relationship taking place… either way. The moment I heard that rendition I realized that the word “gay” DOES NOT mean “homosexual”. Gay means homosexual no more than nigger means African American. I seriously wish people would grow up. Not only is this actually a campaign against the freedom of speech… but people are just so full of it. Seriously. I can’t stand it. When did America become a country full of sissies afraid of getting their feelings hurt? So ridiculous. I cannot express my frustration. ARGH. UGH! FAK! WTH!? It’s so annoying. Here’s a question for the teeming millions… What happened to truth, justice, and the American way… and when the hell is it coming back? If Cecil could give me an answer that I could believe… then I would admit that Cecil knows all things and everything. America is so gay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thats-so-gay/508358.md?page=9)