# The 10,000 Year Explosion - a book review **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355 "2011-04-22T14:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/261 "2011-04-28T01:53:20Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Prejudice? Look who is talking. :rolleyes: Chen0189 has posted facts that he has documented. You have posted little but snide comments. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/262 "2011-04-28T03:38:18Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If you click on the following website, you will see that the race gap between white and black SAT scores has grown since 1990. It has continued to grow since 2001, when No Child Left Behind was inaugurated. > [http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171](http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171) How many times do I have to repeat myself? No Child Left Behind is not designed to address racial disparities. And the fact that it is not working doesn’t prove the disparities are innate. This is basic logic. And we’re not even getting into the fact that SAT scores aren’t the same thing as intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/263 "2011-04-28T03:53:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat myself? No Child Left Behind is not designed to address racial disparities. And the fact that it is not working doesn’t prove the disparities are innate. This is basic logic. And we’re not even getting into the fact that SAT scores aren’t the same thing as intelligence. Very true. If you want to get into that debate you need to look [here](http://www.google.co.nz/url?q=http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/&sa=U&ei=peS4Te-WMJOx0QH07qn4Dw&ved=0CA4QFjAA&sig2=lOA1vDCLXv1yKTPQTNaI6Q&usg=AFQjCNFy6-yQBQr4cYZ2DuLSaEUXSITfIw). btw. the problem with NCLB is set out by Rothstein, Jacobsen & Wilder [here](http://www.epi.org/webfeatures/viewpoints/rothstein_20061114.pdf): > [@](#): > > In its administration of NCLB, the U.S. Department of Education barely acknowledges this human variability. … Under NCLB, children with I.Q.s as low as 65 must achieve a standard of proficiency in math which is higher than that achieved by 60 percent of students in Taiwan, the highest scoring country in the world (in math), and a standard of proficiency in reading which is higher than that achieved by 65 percent of students in Sweden, the highest scoring country in the world (in reading). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/264 "2011-04-28T04:14:12Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > btw. the problem with NCLB is set out by Rothstein, Jacobsen & Wilder [here](http://www.epi.org/webfeatures/viewpoints/rothstein_20061114.pdf): I’m sure that’s exactly the problem: it’s not that it was never intended to address any racial disparities, it’s not the underlying issues associated with race, and it’s not the fact that NCLB made a series of demands on the states and schools without providing funding for them (and was then underfunded itself). It’s that black kids are genetically dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/265 "2011-04-28T04:31:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sure that’s exactly the problem: it’s not that it was never intended to address any racial disparities, it’s not the underlying issues associated with race, and it’s not the fact that NCLB made a series of demands on the states and schools without providing funding for them (and was then underfunded itself). It’s that black kids are genetically dumb. I think you’re responding to something I haven’t said. That quote from Rothstein et al is in reference to all students, not about race. If you want to go into that discussion, I said you can probably start with that [issue](http://www.google.co.nz/url?q=http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/&sa=U&ei=peS4Te-WMJOx0QH07qn4Dw&ved=0CA4QFjAA&sig2=lOA1vDCLXv1yKTPQTNaI6Q&usg=AFQjCNFy6-yQBQr4cYZ2DuLSaEUXSITfIw) of Psychology, Public Policy, and Law which addresses the subject of group disparities. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/266 "2011-04-28T05:06:00Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I hadn’t seen that essay, here is the [paper](http://harpending.humanevo.utah.edu/Documents/ashkiq.webpub.pdf), which goes into a lot more detail. Thanks for the link. The article, of course, is more detailed than the essay. I notice several things. First, the evidence that, historically, the Ashkenazi were predominantly moneylenders is very thin. It seems the majority were merchants and shopkeepers. Possibly IQ elastic, as the article uses the term, but not obviously so. Second, the question is why the Ashkenazi appear to be significantly better at language and math, but not spatial skills, where the proposed theory addresses only math and ignores the other two. Whence all the Jewish lawyers and psychologists? Third, that this could be a selecion pressure is plausible, but doesn’t make it so. Fourth, from a little googling, I learn the theory (not surprisingly) is [controversial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence) and that Cochran advocates a [pathogenic theory of homosexuality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexuality#Pathogenic_hypothesis_of_homosexuality). Which illustrates my main objection. Speculation on evolutionary causation is easily manipulated, to the extent of being essentially ad hoc. And, Mr. Cochran, if you wish to have a conversation with me, bring less snark. Or don’t. No skin off my nose. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/267 "2011-04-28T05:31:00Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > Thanks for the link. The article, of course, is more detailed than the essay. I notice several things. First, the evidence that, historically, the Ashkenazi were predominantly moneylenders is very thin. It seems the majority were merchants and shopkeepers. Possibly IQ elastic, as the article uses the term, but not obviously so. Second, the question is why the Ashkenazi appear to be significantly better at language and math, but not spatial skills, where the proposed theory addresses only math and ignores the other two. Whence all the Jewish lawyers and psychologists? Third, that this could be a selecion pressure is plausible, but doesn’t make it so. Fourth, from a little googling, I learn the theory (not surprisingly) is [controversial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence) and that Cochran advocates a [pathogenic theory of homosexuality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexuality#Pathogenic_hypothesis_of_homosexuality). Which illustrates my main objection. Speculation on evolutionary causation is easily manipulated, to the extent of being essentially ad hoc. > > And, Mr. Cochran, if you wish to have a conversation with me, bring less snark. Or don’t. No skin off my nose. I thought it did address math & language/verbal abilities? > [@](#): > > managerial and financial jobs, jobs of high complexity… > > The suggested selective process explains the pattern of mental abilities in Ashkenazi Jews: high verbal and mathematical ability but relatively low spatio-visual ability. Verbal and mathematical talent helped medieval businessmen succeed, while spatio-visual abilities were irrelevant. p 12-13. ---
**Author:** ![gcochran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@gcochran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gcochran)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/268 "2011-04-28T06:44:37Z")
"I thought it did address math & language/verbal abilities? " Of course we did. However, in listing what we considered evidence for high intelligence, we concentrated on high achievements in mathematics and the exact sciences, since it is easier to get people to agree on the reality of scientific accomplishment than on literary or artistic merit. There is no disputing tastes. to pbear: The evidence for the vast majority of Jews being involved in moneylending in the High Middle Ages is not thin: we cited a number of histories that make this point. Take a look at this, which happens to be online: [http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Ancient\_and\_Medieval\_History/632-1650/Christendom/Commerce/Moneylending.shtml](http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Ancient_and_Medieval_History/632-1650/Christendom/Commerce/Moneylending.shtml) . It is not really possible to insert a number of multi-page quotes into a scientific paper that is already more than 50 pages long. You can either believe us or look at the cited sources. That’s generally how it works. Look, Jim Crow thinks that our Ashkenazi paper was interesting and legitimate. He’s the grand old man of American population genetics: why not pay attention to the real players, rather than the poseurs? You might also note that we predicted Neanderthal admixture in existing humans ( in chapter 2). Guess how that turned out? As for the ‘gay germ’ theory, Bill Hamilton thought it made sense. You’ve probably never heard of him - if so, look him up in Wiki. He was an interesting guy - and probably the best theoretical biologist in the last half of the 20th century. Quite a few others agree with him: typically they say it’s the only theory they know of that _could_ be true - the only one that makes sense in the light of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/269 "2011-04-28T14:20:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > And what is your origin? I bet you are Polish, aren’t you? Oh Christ, **pinguin** just met **New Deal Democrat**. This could be fun. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/270 "2011-04-28T14:57:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat myself? No Child Left Behind is not designed to address racial disparities. And the fact that it is not working doesn’t prove the disparities are innate. This is basic logic. And we’re not even getting into the fact that SAT scores aren’t the same thing as intelligence. Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line… As for “social position, access to libraries, and the opportunity to take vacations or to take SAT prep courses,” consider this: ``` Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less... ``` The SAT oozes g. So long as the test retains its integrity, there is little chance that the black-white gap will narrow significantly. > **[Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com//testing.htm)** > > Interpreting racial and ethnic gaps on standardized exams can be > > full of traps. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/271 "2011-04-28T15:01:13Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line… Now we’re getting somewhere: you’re not addressing what I said, so I can just quote myself and have done. > [@Marley23](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat myself? No Child Left Behind is not designed to address racial disparities. And the fact that it is not working doesn’t prove the disparities are innate. This is basic logic. And we’re not even getting into the fact that SAT scores aren’t the same thing as intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/272 "2011-04-28T15:11:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line… > > As for “social position, access to libraries, and the opportunity to take vacations or to take SAT prep courses,” consider this: > > ``` > Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less... > > ``` > > The SAT oozes g. So long as the test retains its integrity, there is little chance that the black-white gap will narrow significantly. > > [Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com//testing.htm) Isn’t the info a little bit old? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/273 "2011-04-28T15:20:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat myself? No Child Left Behind is not designed to address racial disparities. And the fact that it is not working doesn’t prove the disparities are innate. This is basic logic. And we’re not even getting into the fact that SAT scores aren’t the same thing as intelligence. How many times do I have to repeat myself. No Child Left Behind is failing because most blacks cannot meet the standards. Nevertheless, those administering NCLB maintain dogmatically that blacks are as capable as whites and Orientals, and if they do not perform as well it is the teachers’ faults. NCLB makes public school teachers less willing than previously to teach in predominately black public schools. It never was very satisfying to try to teach students who are stupid, lazy, disruptive, and often dangerous. Now teachers who are assigned students like that are punished if they cannot get the same results as teachers who teach middle class whites and Asians who are trying to get into the colleges of their choices. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/274 "2011-04-28T15:23:06Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Isn’t the info a little bit old? :rolleyes: It is still valid. Try these SAT scores, then: > **[Fast Facts: SAT scores (171)](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171)** > > The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/275 "2011-04-28T15:28:06Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > No Child Left Behind is failing because most blacks cannot meet the standards. You haven’t backed this up, and more importantly, you have not proved this says something about black students rather than indicating the flaws of NCLB. > [@](#): > > NCLB makes public school teachers less willing than previously to teach in predominately black public schools. Cite. > [@](#): > > It never was very satisfying to try to teach students who are stupid, lazy, disruptive, and often dangerous. I take it you believe that’s also genetic? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/276 "2011-04-28T16:18:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You haven’t backed this up, and more importantly, you have not proved this says something about black students rather than indicating the flaws of NCLB. I have documented a significant and persistent gap in intellectual ability between whites and blacks. The fundamental flaw of NCLB is that it sets goals that are impossible to meet. * * * The New York Times Published: March 9, 2011 More than 80,000 of the nation’s 100,000 public schools could be labeled as failing under No Child Left Behind, the main federal law on public education, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan told Congress on Wednesday… The No Child Left Behind Act, introduced in 2001 by President George W. Bush and passed by Congress with bipartisan support, requires that all schools bring 100 percent of their students to proficiency in math and reading by 2014. Mr. Duncan has called this requirement “utopian.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/education/10education.html?pagewanted=1&\_r=1&sq=no](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/education/10education.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=no) child left behind &st=cse&scp=3 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/277 "2011-04-28T16:20:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I take it you believe that’s also genetic? Yes I do, for reasons explained in The 10,000 Year Explosion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/278 "2011-04-28T16:27:00Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have documented a significant and persistent gap in intellectual ability between whites and blacks. We know _you_ think that. > [@](#): > > The fundamental flaw of NCLB is that it sets goals that are impossible to meet. Unless something like 80 percent of U.S. public school students are black, I think your cite severely undermines your position. And in the real world, while I don’t have a problem labeling NCLB a failure, Duncan’s statement has to be considered in a political context: the Obama administration doesn’t support the program. And neither do I, but you’re still failing to draw any connection between race and those failures. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/279 "2011-04-28T16:27:37Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > How many times do I have to repeat myself. No Child Left Behind is failing because most blacks cannot meet the standards. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. It is as though you simply post “blacks is dumb” any time someone attempts to point out your error. NCLB is failing at all levels, not just among black children, because it was poorly conceived, poorly designed, and inadequately funded. If it was helping white kids and failing to help black kids, you might have a point, (although there could still be a lot of reasons for the outcome that had nothing to do with intelligence or purported race), but since it is failing for everyone, your point is simply absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355/280 "2011-04-28T16:33:05Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Yes I do, for reasons explained in The 10,000 Year Explosion. That’s the book that explains why Iraq is the most intellectually advanced nation on earth while Japan is among the least. > [@tomndebb](#): > > It is as though you simply post “blacks is dumb” any time someone attempts to point out your error. At this point, that’s like saying “It is as though the sun rises in the east”. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-000-year-explosion-a-book-review/579355.md?page=15)