# The 10 Commandments and Courthouses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169 "2002-04-23T16:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/1 "2002-04-23T16:55:30Z")
So… there has been an issue lately in at least two cases where the 10 commandments has been a controversy by being placed in a courthouse. In the recent story, the plaque was placed over 80 years ago. [http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/3120463.htm](http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/3120463.htm) But… there was also the story about the judge who put a stone version of the 10 commandments in the courthouse without telling people beforehand. Is this appropriate? Does it violate the seperation of church and state? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/2 "2002-04-23T17:07:12Z")
Damn straight it violates SOCAS. It clearly ‘rescpects an establishment of religion’. It is _unconstitutional_ to bring ‘God’s laws’ into a government court of law. Period. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/3 "2002-04-23T17:14:43Z")
According to one protester: > [@](#): > > “You can cover up the words on the courthouse plaque,” he sang, “but the words live inside us all.” So why are they protesting if they agree? No one’s trying to take the words out from inside of anyone. They can move the plaque to any privately owned location where it will completely safe from the 'Nazis". ---
**Author:** ![Ms.Lois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Ms.Lois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms.Lois)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/4 "2002-04-23T17:17:38Z")
The first 3 commandments are ONLY about religion, and have NOTHING to do with secular laws: > [@](#): > > 1.) I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments. > > 1. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain. > > 2. Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. But of the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day, and sanctified it. These three commandments have only religous significance and have no place in the United States Judicial system or on any other government building. I read about a student somewhere who requested that the “pillars of Islam” be posted next to the ten commandments. Needless to say, the request wasn’t met. The student’s point was that NEITHER religious text belonged. ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/5 "2002-04-23T18:01:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > So why are they protesting if they agree? No one’s trying to take the words out from inside of anyone. They can move the plaque to any privately owned location where it will completely safe from the “Nazis”. [Godwin](http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin%5B/url's-Law.html) in 3. A new record? ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/6 "2002-04-23T18:03:52Z")
Whoops, majorly screwed that one up. Should have been: **Godwin in 3. A new record?** (apparently the software doesn’t like the hyperlink. Off to ATMB…) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/7 "2002-04-23T18:37:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > It is _unconstitutional_ to bring ‘God’s laws’ into a government court of law. Period. Not that that won’t stop the conservatives from trying to do so. :rolleyes: Of course, if you want to mess with their minds, just ask them _which_ ten commandments should be posted – not all forms of Christianity believe in the same ten, after all… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/8 "2002-04-23T18:48:21Z")
Well, if it’s an historical landmark, or piece, I can see a case for having them remain. Otherwise, violates the Establishment Clause. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/9 "2002-04-23T19:16:39Z")
**RwS** : I hope you weren’t accusing _me_ of violating Godwin’s (not that I’ve never) since I was referring to a quote in the linked article. To wit: > [@](#): > > Rally participants heard such speakers as local resident Mark Henrie, who compared the shrouding of the plaque to the removal and destruction of cultural artifacts by the Nazis in World War II. Well, is it a mere ‘cultural artifact’ or are they ‘God’s Laws’? ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/10 "2002-04-23T20:04:43Z")
I would like to apologize on behalf of the many other Chester County, Pennsylvania residents who are embarrased, chagrined, and just plain pissed off that our commissioners are wasting time and money on fighting the judge’s order to remove the plaque. U.S. District Judge Stewart Dalzell’s ruling made quite clear that:[list=1][li]Chester County’s plaque violates the Lemon Test.[/li][li]The plaque was donated by a religious group and its text is a Protestant Christian interpretation of the Ten Commandments.[/li][li]Only 84 words of the text, Dalzell wrote, “could be fairly regarded as conveying a secular, moral message.”[/list=1](Above list from [The Philadelphia Inquirer](http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2805269.htm).)[/li]Take it down, leave it covered, or put it in context. This is the sort of thing that makes me believe James Carville’s description of the state as “Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between.” ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/11 "2002-04-23T20:31:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Well, if it’s an historical landmark, or piece, I can see a case for having them remain. Otherwise, violates the Establishment Clause. \*\* Yeah, that might be a reason to let it remain in place. But if that were really the case, the protestors would have been shouting “Don’t cover historical landmarks”, instead of “You can’t cover **The Truth** tm.” ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/12 "2002-04-23T20:59:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Of course, if you want to mess with their minds, just ask them _which_ ten commandments should be posted – not all forms of Christianity believe in the same ten, after all… \*\* I did that once. The answer I got was “God’s version.” Needless to say, the conversation finished its tumble downhill from there. No, no one today should place the 10 commandments on the walls in a courthouse. I might be able to see letting it go as a historical landmark/artifact - if it really is a historical landmark/artifact. I can’t see the pictures now (not sure why) so is it truly landmark status? Or, just a plaque? ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/13 "2002-04-23T21:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > …no one today should place the 10 commandments on the walls in a courthouse. I might be able to see letting it go as a historical landmark/artifact - if it really is a historical landmark/artifact. Ordinarily I’m an easy-going chap, and I know how to pick my battles. It would be simple enough to draw a line in the sand and say, “No _new_ unconstitutional monuments.” But why should we excuse the constitutional violations of the past, just because they weren’t recognized at the time as being wrong? Is there a statute of limitations in the First Amendment? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/14 "2002-04-24T00:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > But why should we excuse the constitutional violations of the past, just because they weren’t recognized at the time as being wrong? Because, silly, they serve a secular purpose. And what is that purpose? Honoring our history. And what is that history? It’s the history of how our country ignored its own constitution and oppressed religious minorities. So, you see, it’s perfectly constitutional because it’s not honoring Christianity, but instead honoring our country’s history of honoring Christianity. Completely different. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/15 "2002-04-24T00:29:48Z")
Because perhaps it was created by such and such artist, on such and such date, and it’s a part of a historical building. Sheesh, HISTORY, people. You don’t destroy history. ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/16 "2002-04-24T00:39:57Z")
It’s a big bronze plaque, but nothing special. Here is a [picture](http://www.philly.com/images/philly/inquirer/2811/7903249184.gif) (it’s the only one I could find, and I guess the lady in the fur coat gives a sense of scale, anyway.) I fail to see any historical significance, personally, but neither do I advocate destroying it. Move it to a church, a private building, or for that matter the county museum, where it could be part of a display about the interplay of church and state, etc., but don’t leave it next to the front door of the county courthouse. ---
**Author:** ![Shortie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Shortie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shortie)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/17 "2002-04-24T15:18:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Because perhaps it was created by such and such artist, on such and such date, and it’s a part of a historical building. > > Sheesh, HISTORY, people. You don’t destroy history. \*\* So how is anything not history? That would apply equally to the new one being put up. And does any message, no matter how illegal, get the same treatment? (Or was I just whooshed?) ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/18 "2002-04-24T17:24:30Z")
I just want somebody to post a large plaque of the Bill of Rights in a courtroom/house somewhere. After all, the original ten amendments are commandments too. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/19 "2002-04-24T17:35:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheeGrumpy \* > \*\*But why should we excuse the constitutional violations of the past, just because they weren’t recognized at the time as being wrong? Is there a statute of limitations in the First Amendment? \*\* For that matter, why should we excuse violations written into the constitution by the founders. They’re the ones who created a constitution without even realizing what it meant. 😕 Seriously, IMHO the founders would not have considered the 10 C display unconstitutional. However, today’s SCOTUS has held it unconstitutional, so we will follow their rulings. Speaking as an atheist, I would not object to the posting of the 10 Cs. But, of course, the Court gets the last word. This is not a big issue to me one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Echo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Echo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Echo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169/20 "2002-04-24T17:47:11Z")
Aside from the obvious church - state issues related to posting the 10 ccs in courthouses, what bugs me is that many of the “shalt nots” are perfectly legal in this country, so I don’t understand the point of having them posted in a _courthouse_ of all places. That’s like saying “Thou shalt have no other god before Yahweh…but you have freedom of religion and it’s not illegal, so god ahead and put a few other gods before Yahweh if you want to.” or “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s whatever…but it’s not illegal so go ahead and brood over how much you wish you had your neighbor’s new swimming pool.” What kind of sense does this make? 😕 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-10-commandments-and-courthouses/105169.md?page=2)