# The 100 Most Influential People - Try the Third **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 14, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080 "2010-04-14T16:58:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/361 "2010-05-17T16:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > How about this for a compromise? – we agree to eliminate Kepler now if Galileo can be resurrected. [Host Hat] Well, _that’s_ not going to work - Galileo has been voted out fair and square. Lobby to get Kepler kicked out as much as you want, but nobody is going to be reinstated. [/Host Hat] ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/362 "2010-05-17T17:19:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > [Host Hat] > nobody is going to be reinstated. > > [/Host Hat] Not even Jesus? After 3 days? ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/363 "2010-05-17T17:36:17Z")
Invention. Joseph Lister Leaders. Alexander the Great Philosophy. Francis Bacon Religion. Martin Luther Science. John Dalton A couple of changes for me: I looked at the remaining choices afresh and really tried to see _influence_ as opposed to _achievement_. It’s a tough ol’ world in this thread now. And I agree with **Tom Scud** re Luther: Following picks in religion will be much more difficult following Luther’s departure, whenever that occurs. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/364 "2010-05-17T17:52:31Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Not even Jesus? After 3 days? He might cheat Death, but not my game! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Uncle\_Goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Goat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/365 "2010-05-18T02:03:09Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > But Moses, the books attributed to him, and the Mosaic Law are all major influences on Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism. Now you’re talking big numbers. > > My votes coming up. absolutely, but one has to make a choice somewhere, and Luther strikes me as more important at his point. In fact, I see Luther as more important than Jesus. Jesus didn’t “create” anything, that’s all on Paul. What the hell, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/366 "2010-05-18T02:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Luther strikes me as more important at his point. In fact, I see Luther as more important than Jesus. What did Luther really create? There had been dissent against the Catholic Church for centuries before Luther came along. Luther didn’t abolish Catholicism - he just institutionalized an alternative form of Christianity in Western Europe. (Eastern Europe already had an existing alternative form of Christianity.) And Luther’s personal theology isn’t that influential. Protestantism quickly factionalized into dozens of different religions and only a relatively small number of people still adhere to Luther’s beliefs. It’s true that Luther’s Reformation had a bunch of indirect non-religious results. But you could say the same thing about Galileo or Gutenberg or Columbus - all of them did something that had indirect consequences they hadn’t foreseen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/367 "2010-05-18T05:24:38Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I don’t see Galileo ahead of Kepler, and definitely not Top 5 (mine is Newton at 1 with Darwin, Einstein, Euclid, and Pasteur rounding out the top 5 in no particular order). Maxwell rounded out my top 6… I’m glad to see our lists are very similar. I’d rank Aristotle and perhaps Descartes as very influential (though often wrong!) but they appear in another sublist. I might put Faraday ahead of Maxwell. (And some very influential scientists are missing from Hart’s List, e.g. Leibniz.) As for Galileo, I’ll agree there are some physicists from that era who seem more brilliant (Cardano, Kepler, Huygens). My reaction is mainly due to the opinions of other great physicists. I quoted Hawking above; Newton and Einstein also praised Galileo’s influence in superlative terms. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/368 "2010-05-18T07:15:16Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I don’t see Galileo ahead of Kepler … I am delighted Kepler has lasted this long. He was a truly great mathematician. His Laws of Planetary Motion were a supreme achievement. [Here’s a page](http://www.keplersdiscovery.com/SixCornered.html) which mentions Kepler’s comments on snowflake symmetries (though not his conclusion that these symmetries implied the atomic theory. It seems a very nice website with a dozen or so other interesting pages about Kepler, though I didn’t notice his famous Wine Barrel Problem or even [his famous extension to Plato’s regular solids](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Kepler-PoinsotSolid.html).) But even though I’m a fan of Kepler, was he truly near the top of the “influential”? Newton published 80 years after Kepler, and derived Kepler’s laws as a consequence of Newton’s laws. To regard Kepler as having supreme influence, one would have to believe that Kepler’s work inspired Newton to pursue celestial motions, etc. That Kepler was a key inspiration for Newton seems plausible, but is this known? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Uncle\_Goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Goat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/369 "2010-05-18T11:49:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What did Luther really create? There had been dissent against the Catholic Church for centuries before Luther came along. Luther didn’t abolish Catholicism - he just institutionalized an alternative form of Christianity in Western Europe. (Eastern Europe already had an existing alternative form of Christianity.) And Luther’s personal theology isn’t that influential. Protestantism quickly factionalized into dozens of different religions and only a relatively small number of people still adhere to Luther’s beliefs. > > It’s true that Luther’s Reformation had a bunch of indirect non-religious results. But you could say the same thing about Galileo or Gutenberg or Columbus - all of them did something that had indirect consequences they hadn’t foreseen. Busting up the Catholic Church is HUGE. Centuries of monolithic thought police openly mocked and finally overthrown. Dissent against isn’t the same as actual revolt and unforeseen consequences often \*influence \* many other events. And in this case, Gutenberg and the printing press certainly take a good deal of credit of getting the Reformation spread across Europe, something Luther wasn’t prepared for. Nonetheless, a pivotal moment in history. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/370 "2010-05-18T13:34:33Z")
> [@Uncle\_Goat](#): > > Busting up the Catholic Church is HUGE. Centuries of monolithic thought police openly mocked and finally overthrown. Dissent against isn’t the same as actual revolt and unforeseen consequences often \*influence \* many other events. But this wasn’t even Luther’s intent. He had no desire to bust up or overthrow the Catholic Church – he saw that the churched had erred is some important ways, and he wanted to steer it back to the right track (reformation). When the hierarchy resisted, he began to recognize corruption in the church. But the division of the church and his excommunication was upsetting to him and the splintering of protestant denominations – the violence that ensued – was abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/371 "2010-05-18T13:37:19Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > But this wasn’t even Luther’s intent. He had no desire to bust up or overthrow the Catholic Church – he saw that the churched had erred is some important ways, and he wanted to steer it back to the right track (reformation). When the hierarchy resisted, he began to recognize corruption in the church. But the division of the church and his excommunication was upsetting to him and the splintering of protestant denominations – the violence that ensued – was abhorrent. :dubious: " It is right and lawful to slay at the first opportunity a rebellious person, who is known as such, for he is already under God’s and the emperor’s ban. Every man is at once judge and executioner of a public rebel; just as, when a fire starts, he who can extinguish it first is the best fellow. Rebellion is not simply vile murder, but is like a great fire that kindles and devastates a country; it fills the land with murder and bloodshed, makes widows and orphans, and destroys everything, like the greatest calamity. Therefore, whosoever can, should smite, strangle, and stab, secretly or publicly, and should remember that there is nothing more poisonous, pernicious, and devilish than a rebellious man. Just as one must slay a mad dog, so, if you do not fight the rebels, they will fight you, and the whole country with you." > **[Luther Against the Peasants (1525)](https://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/peasants1525.html)** > > Luther Against the Peasants (1525) In my preceding pamphlet \[…\] Luther was many things, but a pacifist who found violence abhorrent he is decidedly _not_. (He’s also one who wasn’t used to testing himself against his own words, apparently. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/372 "2010-05-18T13:50:29Z")
Luther wrote _Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants_ in 1525 in which he argued that the peasants who were uprising in Germany should not resort to violence. According to [ReligionFacts](http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/people/luther/works.htm): > [@](#): > > This tract was written in response to the Twelve Articles of the Christian Union of Upper Swabia, a tract that justified peasant revolt on biblical and Lutheran principles and were being widely distributed throughout Germany. In response, he had published an Admonition to Peace, in which he argued that though many of the peasant grievances were justified, they should not resort to violence. > > Soon after, during a preaching tour of Saxony and Thuringia Luther realized the full extent of peasant unrest. In response, he appended this text, which he titled Against the Rebelling Peasants, to the third Wittenberg edition of his Admonition to Peace. This was published on May 10. > > Printers in other cities retitled it with the more radical title without Luther’s approval, and sold it as a separate pamphlet. But Luther was widely criticized for the violent language he employed in this tract, both immediately after its publication and in years to come. In early July of the same year, Luther explained and defended his treatise in An Open Letter on the Harsh Book Against the Peasants. He said that the actions of the peasants were in direct violation of God’s authority, making them instruments of the devil. I probably overstated he opposition to violence in general, but my point was that he did not support violence as a legitimate response to authoritarianism; in fact your own quote indicates just the opposite, that those in authority are obligated to use violence to quell rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/373 "2010-05-18T13:55:50Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > But this wasn’t even Luther’s intent. I find the insistence to link intent with influence odd. Actions have consequences. Whether or not the person doing it intended the consequences is irrelevant or at least merely a footnote as far as history is concerned. A lot of historical people are influential for reasons they might not have liked or intended themselves. If I intend to build a better way of processing data, but end up creating the first Artifical Intelligence by accident in a movie like twist, does it mean it doesn’t count as influence because I didn’t intend for it to happen? If the Pope acts with the intent to spread Catholicism, but ends up splintering the Catholic church into a thousand pieces and destroying the papal institution, does that not count as influence because he didn’t intend it? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/374 "2010-05-18T14:39:00Z")
No, of course not. There’s no question he was influential; I just find it odd to consider him more influential than the others remaining on the list. More influential than Jesus? That’s crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/375 "2010-05-18T15:35:36Z")
> [@Uncle\_Goat](#): > > Busting up the Catholic Church is HUGE. Centuries of monolithic thought police openly mocked and finally overthrown. Dissent against isn’t the same as actual revolt and unforeseen consequences often _influence_ many other events. > > And in this case, Gutenberg and the printing press certainly take a good deal of credit of getting the Reformation spread across Europe, something Luther wasn’t prepared for. Nonetheless, a pivotal moment in history. If the Church you’re talking about had existed and Luther had overthrown it, I might agree. But the facts are that the Church wasn’t a monolith; it was heavily factionalized, there were numerous opposition groups besides Luther’s, there was the entire Orthodox Church as an alternative institution, and the “thought police” came as a result of the Reformation not as a cause of it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/376 "2010-05-19T01:17:36Z")
Four more hours until round… whatever… ends. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Uncle\_Goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Goat)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/377 "2010-05-19T02:58:21Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > No, of course not. There’s no question he was influential; I just find it odd to consider him more influential than the others remaining on the list. More influential than Jesus? That’s crazy talk. Of all the things Jesus was, and of all the things he might have been, he was never ever a “Christian.” That burden belongs to other people. And saying that Jesus is your guiding hand while going off to murder thousands in crusades or millions to secure oil doesn’t shift the blame to Jesus either. Huge difference between “influence” and “handy excuse to rape, pillage and plunder other people who look different from me.” Take a note of the number of times “Jesus” has lead armies into battle. Okay, that wasn’t Jesus after all, just another prick itching for a fight. Luther left behind writings. Jesus did not. Luther’s likeness is known. Jesus’ likeness is based upon Italian fantasies from the Renascence a time when long hair and facial hair where sure signs that you didn’t have syphilis, and thus were living clean. Luther’s life is known. Jesus is possibly fictional, certainly unclear. There’s a whole squad of right royal bastards who embrace the Jesus from the Book of Revelations, written by known whack-job St John the Divine. St John was a Greek Christian Jew – meaning that Christianity was still a Jewish cult at the time and dearly afraid of just about everything. His Jesus is also a big influence, but that’s St John, not Jesus. So once you boil away all that is Jesus from all that is not, even a crazy person could see that Luther has more influence than the so called son of god. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/378 "2010-05-19T04:04:19Z")
I’ve got a busy day tomorrow, capped with 5 hours of driving at the end of it, so I’m calling round 12. The losers are… **Category, Name, # of votes** I, Guglielmo Marconi, 6 L, Alexander the Great, 4 P, Thomas Jefferson, 4 R, Martin Luther, 7 S, Ernest Rutherford, 5 The last person known as “the Great” wasn’t even good enough to get a top-20 ranking - sorry, Alexander, there’s a higher standard now… Rutherford lost the tie-breaker with Dalton. Remaining names are: **Inventions** Alexander Fleming, Scientist, Invented Penicillin Antony van Leeuwenhoek, Scientist, Inventor of Microscope Edward Jenner, Scientist, Developed Vaccination for Smallpox James Watt, British Scientist, Invented Steam Engine Johann Gutenberg, Scientist, Inventor of Printing Press Joseph Lister, Scientist, Developed Antiseptic Methods Thomas Edison, American Scientist, 1,000+ inventions Ts’ai Lun, Scientist, Inventor of Paper **Leaders** Augustus Caesar, Roman Princep, Founded Roman Empire Genghis Khan, Mongol Ruler, Founded Mongol Empire George Washington, American Statesman and General, Fought For Independence of United States Josef Stalin, Dictator of USSR, Expanded Communism Julius Caesar, Roman General, Ended Roman Civil Wars Lenin, Russian Leader, Founded Communism in Russia Mao Zedong, Chinese Dictator, Established Communism in China Napoleon Bonaparte, French Emperor, Waged Napoleonic Wars Sui Wen Ti, Chinese Emperor, Reunited China William the Conquerer, Norman Duke and English King, Led In Norman Conquest of England **Philosophy** Adam Smith, Economist, Advocated Capitalism Aristotle, Greek Philosopher Confucius, Chinese Philosopher, Founder of Confucianism Francis Bacon, Philosopher, Developed Scientific Method John Locke, British Philosopher, Developed Democratic Ideas Karl Marx, Economist, Founder of Communism Plato, Greek Philosopher, Developed Platonism William Shakespeare, English Playwright **Religion** Buddha, Founder of Buddhism Jesus Christ, Founder of Christianity Mohammed, Founder of Islam Moses, Jewish Prophet St Paul, Christian Missionary and Apostle **Science** Albert Einstein, Scientist, Physicist, Theory of Relativity Charles Darwin, British Scientist, Theory of Evolution Euclid, Greek Mathematician Isaac Newton, British Scientist, Theory of Universal Gravitation and Motion Johannes Kepler, Scientist, Developed Theories of Planetary Motion John Dalton, Scientist, Atomic Theory Louis Pasteur, Scientist, Pasteurization, Germ Theory of Disease Max Planck, Scientist, Developed Therodynamics Michael Faraday, British Scientist, Discovered Electromagnetism ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/379 "2010-05-19T04:07:01Z")
Only one of my previous choices lost… Inventors. Joseph Lister Leaders. Mao Zedong Philosophy. Karl Marx Religion. Buddha Science. John Dalton Little known fact: “Ze Dong” means “the Great” in Chinese. 😛 I still don’t see how Mao and Stalin can be considered more influential than Alexander, however… AtG was in my top 3 in the Leader category. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/380 "2010-05-19T04:27:18Z")
> [@Uncle\_Goat](#): > > Of all the things Jesus was, and of all the things he might have been, he was never ever a “Christian.”… So once you boil away all that is Jesus from all that is not, even a crazy person could see that Luther has more influence than the so called son of god. I’ve no expertise in history of religion, but let me get involved anyway. 😃 In the recent Greatest American game I dropped out rather than voting against Miss Anthony and being labeled a chauvinist! I see no votes against Jesus yet; are some worried about being compared with Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate? I’ve read that Judaea, at the time of Jesus, was eager for a Messiah; Jesus may have been one of several. What about John the Baptist who was also martyred? There’s only smallish evidence for Jesus’ historiocity outside the New Testament; what about for John the Baptist? People voted against Columbus and Maxwell despite their great importance on grounds they were _replaceable_; might Jesus not also have been “replaceable”? I’m sure many Dopers, including myself, do not believe the story of the Resurrection. But true or false, the story is very _influential_. Several Dopers are supporting Moses here _despite that he was probably fictional_; wouldn’t the same argument work in Jesus’ favor even if his famous deeds were fictional? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080.md?page=20)