# The 100 Most Influential People - Try the Third **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 14, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080 "2010-04-14T16:58:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/661 "2010-06-23T22:13:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Without Aristotle surely someone else would have organized science. I don’t know how “sure” you can be. Not counting the Western tradition of civilization, who were the other early pre 16th-century “organizers of science”? Who serves Aristotles role in the Mayan, Indus, Chinese civilizations? And if we can not find other occurrences of “Aristotlean” approaches in civilizations other than ours, than does that not argue for his importance in the development of mankind? It may just be, flawed in the details or not, that Aristotle’s role in the formation of the modern mindset may have only happened once. If so, that makes him one of the most unique people to have ever lived and well worth his placement on these rankings. On the other hand, if there is a rash of scientific organizing principles in other traditions of civilization that I am completely unfamiliar with, then that decreases Aristotle’s uniqueness. But I don’t really think you’ll find them. > [@](#): > > If this happened several centuries later than Aristotle, it might have been good for science, since it’s been argued that the authority of Aristotle’s misconceptions slowed down scientific progress. Again, debatable at best. Aristotle didn’t declare himself an authority - people thousands of years removed from him declared Aristotle an authority. And once we’re talking about whether somebody was “correct”, why allow Newton on this list? After all, Newtonian mechanics do not take into account relativistic or quantum effects, and thus are “misconceptions” as well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/662 "2010-06-23T22:22:14Z")
First things first: **Loser** Aristotle, 8 votes. Sorry, Ari, just couldn’t save you no matter how worthy you are. Loved the “A is A” stuff, but your concepts of what is elemental apparently drove off much of your support. THIS IS IT - THE FINAL ROUND!!! Two men enter… one man leaves. The Inventor or the Scientist? **Isaac Newton, British Scientist, Theory of Universal Gravitation and Motion Johann Gutenberg, Inventor, Inventor of Printing Press** ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/663 "2010-06-23T22:32:13Z")
My hero of influence, for transforming Dynamics, solving the Kepler Problem, and inventing the Calculus goes to … [del]Gutenberg[/del] …er, um, Sir Isaac Newton ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/664 "2010-06-23T22:42:44Z")
A vote against Gutenberg ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/665 "2010-06-23T23:05:01Z")
Gutenberg > [@JohnT](#): > > It may just be, flawed in the details or not, that Aristotle’s role in the formation of the modern mindset may have only happened once. If so, that makes him one of the most unique people to have ever lived and well worth his placement on these rankings. Did you notice I’ve _never_ voted to eliminate Aristotle _throughout this entire game_? I accept Aristotle’s importance, just not the rhetoric that seemed to imply he was hugely more important even than Newton. Perhaps [Abū Yūsuf Yaʻqūb ibn Isḥāq al-Kindī (c. 801–873 CE)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi) would be one of the strongest alternative candidates for ancient scientific philosopher; note that I’m not claiming he was as “great” as Aristotle, and he certainly wasn’t as influential. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/666 "2010-06-23T23:10:33Z")
Johann Gutenberg Of course, the most interesting thing about our list is that we’re about to vote as the Most Influential Person ever a man who did his major work _after_ 81% of all humanity was dead. 😉 > **[How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth?](https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/)** > > The global population milestone of 8 billion people represents nearly 7% of the total number of people who have ever lived on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/667 "2010-06-23T23:11:35Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > My hero of influence, for transforming Dynamics, solving the Kepler Problem, and inventing the Calculus goes to … > [del]Gutenberg[/del] > …er, um, Sir Isaac Newton Is that a vote for or against Newton? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Goat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Uncle\_Goat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Goat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/668 "2010-06-24T00:50:47Z")
Isaac Newton ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/669 "2010-06-24T01:12:48Z")
This thread is so awesome. I’m only sorry that I stumbled upon it so late into the event. Props to JohnT. Since this is the last round and all, might we extend the deadline (and angst) by 24-48 hours? Hm. Here’s another idea. Keep the deadline, tabulate the results, then retcon the ending by submitting the Gutenberg-Newton smackdown to Great Debates. Or maybe we should enter the Furious 5: Johann Gutenberg, Augustus Caesar, Aristotle, Isaac Newton and Mohammad. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/670 "2010-06-24T01:34:44Z")
Another vote against: Gutenberg ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/671 "2010-06-24T03:08:40Z")
Gutenberg ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/672 "2010-06-24T03:16:21Z")
Gutenberg for first runner-up ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/673 "2010-06-24T04:44:25Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Fifty year delay without Gutenberg might be a plausible guess, though it’s probably unknowable. But would a 50 year delay have delayed _all science_ by 50 years? Columbus’ voyage was also important in changing European mindset; can you argue that Columbus wouldn’t have sailed without type-set books? (It’s a sincere question; perhaps Columbus’ voyage _did_ depend on such book reading.) I don’t know the answer to that. He did do a number of calculations involving the earth’s circumference (which he underestimated, following one Marinus of Tyre) and, critically, the existence of trade winds flowing both east-west and west-east. But I understand that his voyage was _popularized_ by letters of Amerigo Vespucci and others. Would Columbus have captured Europe’s imagination so much without fantastic chronicles of his journey? ## If we delay the printing press’ invention by 100 years, then the Protestant Reformation goes away and Luther’s 95 Theses (1517) results in his hanging. Incidentally, I may have overplayed the counterfactual approach: it’s typically used to assess historical _significance_. But it’s meaningful to say that modern biologists are profoundly influenced by Darwin, even if the theory of natural selection would have been proposed by Alfred Russel Wallace absent publication of the _Origins of Species_. After all, few have read Wallace or secondary sources based on Wallace. So his influence is muted. Like most terms, the word “Influence” is ambiguous. But if we drop out the counterfactual aspect altogether, then the award has to go to Gutenberg. European literacy skyrocketed in the 1600s and 1700s and this was due almost entirely to the rise of print culture. It’s easy to imagine the the 1800s without Newton. But take away printing and we arguably lose the reformation, the enlightenment and the industrial revolution. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/674 "2010-06-24T04:51:14Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Is that a vote for or against Newton? I got all excited and messed up, I think. I want Gutenberg as less influential. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/675 "2010-06-24T05:53:58Z")
Ok, here’s what I’ve found from the web. 1. There’s another claimant for the invention of the printing press, one Laurence Koster (Coster) of Haarlem, Netherlands who died in the mid 1400s. The claim seems dubious though. [Laurens Janszoon Coster - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurens_Janszoon_Coster) 2. “By the middle of the 15th century several print masters were on the verge of perfecting the techniques of printing with movable metal type.” [Cite](http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/press.html). Unfortunately, I couldn’t find elaboration for this point. 3. Then again, let’s not forget that Guttenberg worked for about 10 years on the project before rollout. So this wasn’t a trivial step. He invented movable type (though he wasn’t the first to do this) and he had to tinker with inks, presses (inspired by the wine press) and other devices. 4. And the breakthrough was [real](http://www.cs.duke.edu/~chase/cps49s/press-summary.html): “The real innovation of Gutenberg was its movable and interchangeable type. This presaged by 400 years the development of mass-produced machinery from standard, interchangeable parts. In the mid-19th century, use of similar techniques to manufacture guns and other products in the United States was known as “the American system of manufactures” and was the envy of European industry. In essence, the printing press was the first reconfigurable machinery for mass production; that its products were copies of texts and books was incidental to its true novelty. The press was a reconfigurable machine that could easily produce customized goods (e.g., books) in volume, then reconfigured to produce a run of a different book. This seeded development of a machine tool industry that produced standardized parts for assembly into a variety of different products.” 5. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes: "The invention of Gutenberg should be classed with the greatest events in the history of the world. It caused a revolution in the development of culture, equalled by hardly any other incident in the Christian Era. Facility in disseminating the treasure of the intellect was a necessary condition for the rapid development of the sciences in modern times. Happening as it did just at the time when science was becoming more secularized and its cultivation no longer resigned almost entirely to the monks, it may be said that the age was pregnant with this invention. Thus not only is Gutenberg’s art inseparable from the progress of modern science, but it has also been an indispensable factor in the education of the people at large. Culture and knowledge, until then considered aristocratic privileges peculiar to certain classes, were popularized by typography, although in the process it unfortunately brought about an internal revolution in the intellectual world in the direction of what is profane and free from restraint. " 6. Marshall McLuhan (_The Gutenberg Galaxy: The Making of Typographic Man_ (1962) - love that title) first argued that the invention’s impact extended well beyond kicking off the Reformation. A more scholarly treatment is _The printing press as an agent of change:_ (1980) by Elizabeth Eisenstein. 7. Hats off to Adolf of Nassau: his conquest of Gutenberg’s home city of Mainz in 1462 led to the involuntary but fortuitous dispersal of printmen skilled in Gutenberg’s art throughout Europe. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/676 "2010-06-24T08:12:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The Final Round will be a vote of the **MOST** Influential Person of the 5, not the least influential. Sorry, but 23 rounds is enough! (Unless somebody wants to > take over then and do the least influential for another 4 rounds – let me know). Has this changed? Everyone seems to be voting for who they want out. I’m voting for Newton to be most influential. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/677 "2010-06-24T09:28:35Z")
For: Gutenberg [del]Against[/del] Marginally less for: Newton. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/678 "2010-06-24T11:18:34Z")
> [@ColdPhoenix](#): > > Has this changed? Everyone seems to be voting for who they want out. > > I’m voting for Newton to be most influential. Oops! Pretty tricky there, **John T** , not reminding us of this rule zag from 600 posts before. I also intended to vote Newston as most influential. Is it too late to amend my vote? ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/679 "2010-06-24T12:30:36Z")
I’m a humanities guy (majored in English), so I’ll vote to eliminate Newton and thus make Gutenberg the champ. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/680 "2010-06-24T12:32:54Z")
> [@ColdPhoenix](#): > > Has this changed? Everyone seems to be voting for who they want out. > > I’m voting for Newton to be most influential. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12532738&postcount=502](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12532738&postcount=502) Sorry for not being more proactive, but we changed this rule around post 500. To clarify: **ALL VOTES SHOULD BE FOR THE _LEAST_ INFLUENTIAL** If you voted for the “most” influential, feel free to modify your vote to show the lesser influence by the following format: “Vote Change. Newton” (Without the quotes) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080.md?page=35)