# The 12 Steps to Submission **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2000, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693 "2000-03-29T07:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pooch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dbc845/32.png) [@Pooch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pooch)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/1 "2000-03-29T07:31:00Z")
The 12 Steps 1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. 1. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 2. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 3. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 4. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 5. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 7. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 8. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 9. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 10. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I can accept #4, #8, #9, #10 The rest are for pussies. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/2 "2000-03-29T07:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would > injure them or others. **[seinfeldian moment]I’m not going to apologize! You WOULD have stretched out the neckhole in that sweater![/seinfeldian moment]** ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/3 "2000-03-29T16:24:00Z")
I tend to agree. But hey, if it helps someone who was once an asshole drunk become something not an asshole drunk, I refuse to argue with it. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/4 "2000-03-29T16:57:00Z")
My father was an alcoholic and went to one AA meeting. “If anything would ever drive me to drink, it was those pompous religious nuts!” he said. He never went back (and, I might add, never dried out, either). Don’t they have non-religious versions of AA now? My father’s experience was maybe 15 or 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/5 "2000-03-29T16:59:00Z")
Presumably #1 is a necessary preliminary to all the others. ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/6 "2000-03-29T17:09:00Z")
Easy does it. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/7 "2000-03-29T17:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Pooch:\*\* > The rest are for pussies.\*\* Well, now, I wouldn’t have put it exactly like THAT, but… I agree that one of the biggest problems with AA and the other 12-step programs is that they are Christian-based. (In response to the common rebuttal–“but AA is non-denominational”–AA uses a very Christian, or maybe Judeo-Christian view of God. Those of us who have non-Judeo-Christian religious beliefs find this at best, uncomfortable, and at worst offensive. Personally, I know that a 12-step program would simply be ineffective for me. I am a Deist, and therefore can not accept #2 and the rest of the steps that follow from it. Unfortunately, AA is often seen as the best–or only–solution to people who have drinking problems. It works wonderfully well for the people it works for. But, unfortunately, it can not work for many others. ---
**Author:** ![quadell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/b9bd4f/32.png) [@quadell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quadell)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/8 "2000-03-29T17:55:00Z")
Yeah, well, you know, AA works. What can you say? Plenty of non-pussies have drunk themselves to death. _I_ could never follow a 12 step program, which I guess is a good reason for me not to ever get addicted to anything. Your Quadell ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/9 "2000-03-29T17:59:00Z")
Rehab is for quitters anyway. * * * [NYC IRL III](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006163.html) is on April 15th. Do you have what it takes? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/10 "2000-03-30T06:12:00Z")
This has probably been hashed out elsewhere on the board, but what about the DUI & domestic violence cases that are ordered by the court to attend AA, in violation of the seperation of church and state? (look for this same issue to come up over school vouchers that encourage religious indoctrination in parochial schools) ``` Personaly, I favor the excercise of the conscience over the training of the soul. Train the mind, yes, but leave the soul alone; although society tends to attempt the reverse. But that's another pitpost altogether. ``` “A man persuaded against his will remains unpersuaded still.” ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/11 "2000-03-30T06:22:00Z")
I agree with ya, Slithy Tove. That was the underlying issue to which I was referring when I said “Unfortunately, AA is often seen as the best–or only–solution to people who have drinking problems.” I think that the courts tend to slither around this problem by using the “AA is non-denominational” argument. If this has, in fact, been discussed elsewhere, perhaps some kind soul could provide us with a link. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Chief\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2000, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/12 "2000-03-29T21:15:00Z")
I’ve heard some non-religious alcoholics interpret step two as something like “You plus AA is a power greater than yourself alone.” Of course, this doesn’t explain getting by the rest of the steps. I agree that nobody should be forced into AA or really any type of rehab for that matter. it’s a well documented fact that you can’t make someone overcome an addiction, it must be done voluntarily. But AA is really a social thing. Rather than hang out in a bar or sit home alone, you go and meet with a bunch of people and exchange stories and talk about your problems. I’m not for having religion thrust down your throat, but if the alternative is losing your life slowly and painfully to alcohol or any other drug, I think the choice is clear. You don’t have to believe in God to benefit from being in a caring, alcohol-free, social environment. ---
**Author:** ![Pooch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dbc845/32.png) [@Pooch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pooch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/13 "2000-03-30T00:20:00Z")
Not back pedalling, but the lack of hostility motivates me to point out that I would not normally say the 12 Steps are for pussies. I know AA has saved lives. Throwing down the gauntlet in the Pit brings out the worst in me. After taking care of a few odds and ends today, I will add a few disparaging comments about the 12 steps, powerlessness and begging like a dog. Eve, yes, there are alternatives. I’ll post some links when I get back as well. Everybody is so nice, I won’t even sign off with an **EAT ME** or anything equally juvenile like **may your butt cheeks fuse together** (signs off secretly giving the international jerk off salute) ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/14 "2000-03-30T02:04:00Z")
Dear Pooch, Oh no! I am so sorry that I contributed to the “lack of hostility” in this thread. Will I ever get the hang of this BBQ Pit thingie? Probably not. Sorry Pooch. Love ya, Green Bean. P.S. You’re a scum-sucking wombat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/15 "2000-03-30T02:46:00Z")
Besides the deceitfulness of claiming it is non-religious, the other problem I have is the claim that you are an alcoholic for life. This, coupled with the claim that _one_ drink will ruin you, shows me that you have merely substituted one _possible_ addiction for a guaranteed one to AA. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Pooch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dbc845/32.png) [@Pooch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pooch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/16 "2000-03-30T03:38:00Z")
I don’t mind that AA advocates faith in God. I do find it chickenshit and manipulative that some branches deem it a prerequisite to treatment. I think spirituality may be key to recovery for many people, yet right off the bat AA doo-doos on atheists, agnostics, humanists, deists, Buddhists and freethinkers. Make no mistake about this, freethinkers, at many AA meetings, the nail that sticks up does get hammered down. Sheesh, people come for help and at what price do they receive it? AA magnanimously goes on about ‘God as we understand him’ in such a blatant Christian fundamentalist fashion while claiming to be non-denominational and offering up AA prayers peppered with so many ‘thees’ and ‘thous’ that one would be inclined to genuflect before taking the podium, rolling over and ‘confessing’ to the group. I think that will do it for today. Thanks, Green Bean, love ya back, you incestuous, toe-jam licking hillbilly. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Chief\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/17 "2000-03-30T06:35:00Z")
Pooch, have you ever _been_ to an AA meeting? No branch I have ever heard of makes faith in God a “prerequisite for treatment” and if any does it shouldn’t be calling itself Alcoholics Anonymous. Taken from the AA FAQ: > [@](#): > > The majority of A.A. members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves. However, everyone defines this power as he or she wishes. Many people call it God, others think it is the A.A. group, still others don’t believe in it at all. There is room in A.A. for people of all shades of belief and nonbelief. I’ve taken my alcoholic father to AA meetings and sat in on a few. People didn’t rant and witness about God. They just talked about what their lives were like when they were still drinking, while others offered support. Are you basing your opinions on an actual experience or a perceived notion of what goes on at an AA meeting? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/18 "2000-03-30T08:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > the other problem I have is the > claim that you are an alcoholic for life. This is correct. Alcoholism is largely genetic. > [@](#): > > This, coupled with the claim that one drink will ruin you, Oh, the one drink won’t ruin you, but the 10 that come after it might. This is how addiction works. Your brain tricks you into thinking “well, one little drink couldn’t hurt!” Before you know it, you’ve already had two cases of beer and you’re passed out drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/19 "2000-03-30T11:11:00Z")
\*\*Pooch,[/] are you an alcoholic? Are you a drug addict? Did you overcome either of these conditions without the help of AA or NA? If so, congratulations. If not, fuck off and rot, you arrogant prick. If you think that any part of the AA program is for “pussies,” I would suggest that you have no idea of the courage and strength required in overcoming a genuine destructive addiction. For a jerk like you to sit in judgement on an organization that has helped save the lives of XXXX (I don’t have an accurate number) men, women and children is ludicrous. * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/20 "2000-03-30T11:14:00Z")
That should have been “ **Pooch** ” and you did say you wanted some hostility. * * * Crystalguy [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693.md?page=2)