# The 12 Steps to Submission **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2000, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693 "2000-03-29T07:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/21 "2000-03-30T13:45:00Z")
I’m sorry, but is there actual _scientific_ evidence for the “addicted for life” theory? And please don’t show me any AA literature, because they cannot do any unbiased study. Thee percentage of people who stay in AA and stay off alcohol vs. the percentage of people that skip AA and manage some other way cannot be determined if everybody is annonymous, can it? Also, no matter what you may believe, alcoholism is NOT a desease as defined in science. AA doesn’t promote religion?? My father-in-law went to a few meetings, and he wasn’t given the option of followed the steps that didn’t mention “God”. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/22 "2000-03-30T15:28:00Z")
In response to Chief Crunch: I have attended AA-related meetings (Alateen and Alanon). I have also seen parts of regular AA meetings. Certainly I am no expert, but I am qualified to report on what I have observed. You are right that people didn’t “rant and witness.” **But** , the whole AA method is based on a Christian conception of God. This Christian conception of God was reinforced throughout the proceedings of the meetings. It is sometimes difficult for American Christians to understand how the world looks from a non-Christian point of view. Many things that seem non-denominational or non-religious are blatantly Christian to the rest of us. American society is so suffused with Christianity that people just accept it as “normal.” Most American Christians seem only to be able to understand other religions through the lens of Christianity. Even the conception of a “higher power” is very Christian. (Or Judeo-Christian) To me, asking God to remove my shortcomings is about as sensible as asking a tree to remove my shortcomings. It makes no sense. This is not a criticism of Christianity or Christians. I am simply trying to explain that things look very different from the other side of the fence. ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/23 "2000-03-31T12:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by slythe: > \*\*I’m sorry, but is there actual _scientific_ evidence for the “addicted for life” theory? And please don’t show me any AA literature, because they cannot do any unbiased study. Thee percentage of people who stay in AA and stay off alcohol vs. the percentage of people that skip AA and manage some other way cannot be determined if everybody is annonymous, can it? > Also, no matter what you may believe, alcoholism is NOT a desease as defined in science. > AA doesn’t promote religion?? My father-in-law went to a few meetings, and he wasn’t given the option of followed the steps that didn’t mention “God”. > > \*\* I have been told by several doctors, both in and out of rehab, that addiction is for life. If it is not, why do many people return to their drug of choice so often, even after years of living clean? The impulse NEVER completely leaves an addict. Why do you suppose that alcoholics who no longer drink refer to themselves as “recovering alcoholics?” One definition of “Disease” is “a particular destructive process in an organ or organism, with a specific cause and characteristic symptons.” From “Websters New World Dictionary of American English.” I think, but am not positive, that the AMA defines alcoholism as a disease. I would be curious to see your definition of “disease, as defined in science.” AA does not dictate a damn thing. If you find their doctrine helpful, follow it. If you don’t, don’t. Those are the choices. In all of the meetings I have attended, no one ever told me that if I did not believe in God I would not be able to attend those meetings. No one ever asked me if I did or did not believe in God----any God, not just the Christian version. Soliciting the help of a “higher power” (“God, as we understand him to be”) is recommended. The “higher power” can be anything—free choice, right? Even the part of one’s brain that was not being used while one was drinking oneself to death. The purpose of AA is to help alcoholics stop drinking. It works for some and not for others, as is true of many treatments. If you have no first hand experience, you might consider listening to some who do. As for people who attend AA meetings, find something to object to and never go back, my experience has been that a lot of them were pressured into going in the first place. These people usually do not believe they have a problem, they do not want to stop drinking and have no intention of stopping. If I did not want to spend time at the SDMB, I could easily find a lot of reasons not to do so. Some posters to this board annoy hell out of me. Others espouse causes and beliefs I have no interest in. But the total is greater than the sum of its parts and so I keep returning. Same thing with AA. * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/24 "2000-03-31T13:59:00Z")
My father-in-law was an atheist, and he told them at the AA meeting that he didn’t believe in “a higher power”. He also told them, when it was pointed out that “a higher power could be anything, even a doorknob!”, that he wasn’t about to pretend something just to soothe their feelings, and would they mind if he called the doorknob “God” every day and prayed to it? He decided to cut back(NOT quit cold turkey) on his own, and was successful. I believe telling someone that a single drink is cause to believe yourself a failure, and a reason to start the program all over again, is ultimately self-defeating. There are programs out there that don’t go the “Addicted For Life!” route, and are successful for some. This seems to me to expose the “truth” of AA, that you are addicted for life, deseased forever, for the self-serving lie it is. Crystalguy, this is the BBQ Pit. People are going to have strong opinions here. You might be exposed to different experiences than what you might be comfortable with. I’m sorry that I didn’t have the same _opinion_ as you. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/25 "2000-03-31T14:08:00Z")
My father had pretty much the same experience as Slythe’s father-in-law; maybe he just wandered into a particualarly religious meeting. But it sure turned him off! Oddly, my father had no trouble quitting cigarettes, but he never was able to stop drinking. Pooch, no need to post sites for me, though others might want them—my father’s been dead five years now, so bringing him to a meeting would not only do him little good, but would doubtless drive many in attendance back to the bottle . . . ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/26 "2000-03-31T15:25:00Z")
**Slythe,** ask a qualified medical professional if addiction is for life or not. I did and I reported the answers I was given. Let me know what answers you receive. And I am still waiting for your definition of “disease.” One drink may not cause a person’s downfall, that is very true. But if one knows oneself to be an alcoholic, taking that one drink is to dice with death. And I do not regret that your opinion differs from mine. I can report that AA worked for me and so my opinion is that AA is a worthwhile organization. * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Crunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Chief\_Crunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Crunch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/27 "2000-03-31T19:05:00Z")
Green Bean, I’m not a Christian. I hover somewhere between atheism and agnosticism on the theological (or lack of) spectrum. That being said, I think there’s a certain “automatic” intolerance that surfaces with quite a few atheists at any mention of religion in regard to anything. It’s one thing to fight against posting the ten commandments in public schools. That’s a clear violation of the separation of church and state and it’s out and out wrong. But to condemn an organization that’s been around since 1935 in regard to the wording of their principles is absurd. AA states that one doesn’t even _need_ to accept the concept of a higher power to be a member. You’re saying an atheist shouldn’t have to voluntarily tolerate hearing the word “God” a few times, even though it means nothing to him or her? I attended my girlfriend’s Catholic school senior prom and a prayer was held beforehand. I just sat there in respectful silence. I didn’t believe in what was being said and nobody there questioned it. It really wasn’t a big deal. Like I said earlier, people get the most out of AA by being in a social environment with people who have the same problems. It has more to do with empathy and understanding than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/28 "2000-03-31T19:24:00Z")
But are you an agnostic/atheist who was raised Christian? As I said in my earlier post, people who were raised Christian in the U.S. sometimes fail to realize that things that they accept as secular and normal are actually religious. AA is a good case in point. My point, again, is that the AA principles are Christian-based principles. It is more than just "hearing the word “God” a few times. It is that the whole AA plan depends on one type of belief in a higher power–a very Christian type of belief. If you are ordered by the court to go to AA, then you are being forced into a Christian group. And there is a big difference between sitting through a Christian prayer or service, and becoming deeply involved in a Christian program. I think I am speaking for many people here when I say that I think AA is a wonderful organization that has done inestimable good. I am not criticizing AA. I am criticizing the parties who fail to realize that AA is the wrong program for many people. By the way, I am not an atheist. I am a Deist who was raised Jewish. I have a strong belief and faith in God. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/29 "2000-03-31T20:22:00Z")
I believe there is an organization called “rational recovery” for people who have drug/alchohol problems but are turned off by the “higher power” rhetoric in AA, and by the idea that they are powerless over their addiction. I have no idea what their success rate is vs. AA On the DUI issue, the one problem I have is that forcing someone to attend AA contradicts AA’s premise. Step #1 has to be something you come to voluntarily, if I understand it correctly. A friend of mine had to attend AA as part of DUI probation and felt embarrassed, as though he had crashed a personal and private meeting. * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/30 "2000-03-31T21:21:00Z")
Two explanations for the “How can a Court order you to go to a Christian organization?” question. First, in my experience, these Orders require the defendants to participate in an alcohol treatment program. They do not specify AA or any other program. Of course, in many areas, this may be the _de facto_ result because nothing else is available. However, the Court’s order is general. Second, these Orders are generally part of a Probation or Diversion program. A sentence, for instance jail time, is probated if the defendant agrees to comply with the stated terms of the probation agreement. It’s like a contract – if you’ll agree to do these things, we won’t put you in jail. But you don’t have to sign that contract. * * * Been here so long he’s got to calling it Home. ---
**Author:** ![Nurlman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Nurlman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurlman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/31 "2000-03-31T21:43:00Z")
Fun fact: In _Griffin v. Coughlin_, 88 N.Y.2d 674 (1996), New York State’s highest court held that the Department of Corrections could not require inmates to attend 12-step meetings modeled on AA, because the basic thrust of the program was religious and abridged the Establishment Clause. Some representative quotes from the decision: > [@](#): > > The foregoing demonstrates beyond peradventure that doctrinally and as actually practiced in the 12-step methodology, adherence to the A.A. fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization. Followers are urged to accept the existence of God as a Supreme Being, Creator, Father of Light and Spirit of the Universe. In “working” the 12 steps, participants become actively involved in seeking such a God through prayer, confessing wrongs and asking for removal of shortcomings. These expressions and practices constitute, as a matter of law, religious exercise for Establishment Clause purposes . . . . > > The 1952 volume, a portion of which the dissent relies upon as demonstrating a basic A.A. doctrinal shift to the secular, itself explains the dichotomy of roles between the A.A. Big Book and Twelve Steps on the one hand, and the Twelve Traditions on the other. The former writings contain A.A.'s spiritual doctrines and therapeutic, rehabilitative modalities, to be “practiced as a way of life”. As we have demonstrated, these texts are unequivocally religious in theme and proselytizing in content. Conversely, the Twelve Traditions essentially deal with the nondoctrinal, secular problems which can be expected to arise and challenge any popular movement–organizational structure, finances, membership eligibility, management authority and the like. It should come as no surprise, therefore, that the content of the Twelve Traditions is more secular and less religious in tone than its Twelve Steps companion piece in the same volume. That is because it was designed not to supersede the reverent doctrines and practices of the A.A. literature which we have already quoted, but to address the essentially secular issues the A.A. movement confronted as it achieved public acceptance. . . > > [E]ven if respondents are correct that A.A. permits a secular interpretation of its doctrines and practices, undeniably its paramount theme, as we have demonstrated, favors a religious interpretation. Therefore, respondents’ defense fails under the "wholesome ‘neutrality’ " requirement of the Establishment Clause. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/32 "2000-04-01T05:47:00Z")
I just love you ‘experts’ talking out of your assholes about something you know absolutfuckingly nothing about. **Pooch,** if you don’t want to go to the meetings _don’t go!_ _Do your jail time!_ You’re so fucking smart that your _best thinking_ got you where you are!! Moron. And the rest of you freaking phobics worrying about whether AA is a Christian organization. Get a clue!!! This is a Christian country. Dumb fucking drunken shitballs. :: ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/33 "2000-04-01T05:50:00Z")
And BTW \*\*Pooch,\*\*if you think the 12 steps are for pussies, just try and work 'em. Stay sober for a year, if you can. :: ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/34 "2000-04-01T05:56:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > AA doesn’t promote religion?? My father-in-law went to a few meetings, and he wasn’t given the option of followed the steps that didn’t mention “God”. It says "God **as we understand Him** which opens the door to anyone except a rabid suicidal anti-theist. :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/35 "2000-04-01T06:12:00Z")
CalifBoomer, That statement excludes those who don’t believe in God, don’t believe that God is a “he”, or profess not to have any religion whatsoever. BTW, this is NOT a “Christian” country. If you believed that the founding fathers founded this country on their “Christian” principles, you would worship in the manner they did. You don’t. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/36 "2000-04-01T06:32:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > CalifBoomer, That statement excludes those who don’t believe in God, don’t believe that God is a “he”, or profess not to have any religion whatsoever. Wrong. The statement does not exclude anyone who is motivated to break the alcohol addiction. > [@](#): > > BTW, this is NOT a “Christian” country. > If you believed that the founding fathers founded this country on their “Christian” principles, you would worship in the manner they did. > You don’t. You pompous little pissant. How do you presume to know how I worship? : ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/37 "2000-04-01T17:08:00Z")
Do you profess to go to church in drab, grey or black clothing? Does your church service last most of the day? Do you refrain from any work on Sunday? When you go to church, is there a proctor that walks up and down the aisle, hitting people with a long stick if it looks as if they aren’t paying enough attention? I could give examples all day, but most reasonable people can see my point. Unless you belong to a very strict cult, you do not worship as our founding families worshiped. So tell us: Are you a Puritan, or am I blowing smoke out my ass? Your first statement is so stupid, that I _cannot_ respond to it. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/38 "2000-04-02T06:37:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > Your first statement is so stupid, that I cannot respond to it. Of course it is. Never has a drunken agnostic entered AA, worked the 12 steps and become sober and productive for life as a result. Silly me to have drawn such a conclusion. :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/39 "2000-04-01T20:56:00Z")
## Your silliness is common knowledge-no need to dwell upon it. Please reread the twelve steps and tell us which ones are optional to those who don’t believe in a higher power, or don’t believe that God is a “Him”. [sarcasm]And your response as to whether or not you worship as the founding fathers did-simply brilliant![/sarcasm] Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/40 "2000-04-01T21:09:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > Please reread the twelve steps and tell us which ones are optional to those who don’t believe in a higher power, or don’t believe that God is a “Him”. None are ‘optional.’ If you want the cure, you take the medicine. Got it? : [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693.md?page=3)