# The 12 Steps to Submission **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2000, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693 "2000-03-29T07:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/41 "2000-04-01T21:27:00Z")
So an agnostic, an atheist, or someone who believes in a Goddess would either have to convert to the popular Christian conception of a singular “male” god, or be willing to abandon their ethics and willingly lie to the others in the group about following the obviously Christian “higher power”. What part am I not understanding, CalifBoomer? * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/42 "2000-04-01T22:08:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > So an agnostic, an atheist, or someone who believes in a Goddess would either have to convert to the popular Christian conception of a singular “male” god, or be willing to abandon their ethics and willingly lie to the others in the group about following the obviously Christian “higher power”. Let’s regress for just a moment. By the time an individual has reached the point where AA is an option (maybe the _only_ option, they are in a hopeless state of mind and body. They have lost control of their drinking/drugging. Their addiction has them beaten. They are facing oblivion unless something can be done for them. Not all candidates, however, have reached this stage of utter hopelessness. Addiction, any addiction, is marked by a progressive decline. In other words, you can get ‘off the elevator’ at any floor on the way down. You don’t _have_ to go all the way to the basement. Some recognize the inevitable before it actually occurs. These are the fortunate ones. They are able to make the necessary changes in beliefs, attitudes and opinions before their own thinking actually _kills_ them. There is no, I repeat **no** requirement that anybody ‘believe’ in what you term the ‘Christian male God.’ The only requirement is, “A desire to stop drinking.” Period. The 12 steps are categorized as ‘suggested.’ The group at large is quite willing to entertain other ideas to acheive sobriety- and there are many ‘experimentors’. (sp?) Most often, the model for success is as presented. Anyone is free to take it or leave it. It matters not except to that persons own life. The agnostic has the choice laid before him, and will no doubt wrestle with it. The New Ager with the goddess concept probably has an easier route (do they consider the 'goddess’to be benevolent?). The hardcore atheist has a real dilemma, does he/she want to continue along the path of ultimate self-destruction or…?? It would be interesting to know how AA works in other countries where different religions are the norm. I would think that Moslems would have no problem with a higher power concept. Even Hindus could pick on god out of many. I don’t know what Buddhists believe. AA is a proven methodology which, I understand, encompasses some of the most effective tools of psychology. Psychology, however, omits the ‘higher power’ concept when treating addiction, an element without which not much success is achieved. I understand that you’re coming from an anti-Christian viewpoint and accordingly want to take issue with the notion of anyone’s belief in that God. But again, that is not a requirement. :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/43 "2000-04-01T22:28:00Z")
In one post, you say that none of the steps are optional, in this last post, you say that the steps are “suggestions”. Which is it? I also _love_ the reference to atheists continuing “along the path of ultimate self-destruction or…?” Fuck you very much. Step #1 refers to"God as we understand _him_. Step #5 refers to"God", not a higher power, a godhead, a goddess, or any other variation. Step #6 ditto Step #7 “Him” Step #11 “God”, “Him” Step #12 refers to a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps. NOT some of these steps. AA is a Christian organization. ## BTW, as far as AA being a “Proven Methodology” goes, would you mind giving us references or statistics showing this to be true? Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/44 "2000-04-01T23:14:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > BTW, as far as AA being a “Proven Methodology” goes, would you mind giving us references or statistics showing this to be true? No. You can die drunk for all I care, asswipe. Have a nice day. 🙂 :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/45 "2000-04-02T00:01:00Z")
Let’s hear it for the “Compassionate Christian”! Calif, I’m done with you. Consider yourself Fool-Filtered. Does anyone else have an opinion as to how AA can work for someone who doesn’t believe, or if it can be proven with studies to be effective for most people? I am truly curious as to the claims of this organization. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/46 "2000-04-02T00:19:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > Calif, I’m done with you. Consider yourself Fool-Filtered. Does anyone else have an opinion as to how AA can work for someone who doesn’t believe, or if it can be proven with studies to be effective for most people? > I am truly curious as to the claims of this organization. 1)It is essentially none of your business. 2)Your opinion, in any case, has _no_ value. 3)If you want information, go find it for yourself (unless you’re too stupid or too lazy) 4)Thank God you’re done with me. Go find someone else to pester, crack-baby. :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/47 "2000-04-02T00:34:00Z")
I’m also curious as to whether or not alcoholism can be classified as a “desease”. I know that it can be debilitating to an extreme, but so can a broken neck. Is there a blood test that can tell a doctor,“This element exists in the bloodstream, I therefore suspect so-and-so to have alcoholism.” Is there a clinical test that can be done that can tell an alcoholic from someone who just “partied-hearty” for a couple of nights? * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/48 "2000-04-02T00:34:00Z")
As far as I know, AA keeps no records. No one ever took my name or quizzed me on my progress. I never signed a membership application nor do I pay dues. No one ever performed any sort of follow up interview with me to verify my continuing sobriety. So, **Slythe,** to ask for statistics on the success rate of AA for “believers” versus “non-believers” is to ask for something that doesn’t exist. It worked for me and I recommend it to anyone with a drinking problem. If you don’t want to go, or don’t need to go, then don’t. See how easy it is? I would still like to hear your definition of “disease, as defined in science.” * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/49 "2000-04-02T00:46:00Z")
Alcoholism is not a biological error, like atheistic liberalism or homosexuality. It is a behaviour and as such can be unlearned. :: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/50 "2000-04-02T01:07:00Z")
CrystalGuy, someone previously described AA as “Proven Methodology”. I am merely asking for the proof. As far as the definition of desease goes, as I asked before, is there a medical test that can be done to i.d. the desease you call “alcoholism”? * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/51 "2000-04-02T01:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > \*\*Alcoholism is not a biological error, like atheistic liberalism or homosexuality. It is a behaviour and as such can be unlearned. > > :: > > \*\* at the risk of going off topic, how is “atheistic liberalism” a _biological_ error? * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/52 "2000-04-02T01:54:00Z")
Larry: It’s just a red baiting remark intended to piss off leftists. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/53 "2000-04-02T02:06:00Z")
And $6.00/hr rent-a-cops like slythe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/54 "2000-04-02T02:15:00Z")
Larry, did he actually say that alcoholism was a behaviour, not a desease? So all you have to do is change your behaviour and you are no longer an alcoholic, right? That _is_ how the fundies believe that homosexuality can be changed! 🙂 * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/55 "2000-04-02T05:44:00Z")
Well, **Slythe,** first you said something to the effect that alcoholism is NOT a disease, as defined by science. Now you want to know if there is a blood test that will reveal alcoholism. No, there isn’t, to the best of my knowledge. I don’t know why I am bothering to argue with you as it seems that your mind(?) is made up—alcoholism is not a disease and AA will not work for people who do not believe in the “Christian” God. I might add that if you believe our country was founded by people who had to wear dark clothing to a church where they sat for hours listening to someone tell them they were all going to hell, then you know less about our history than you do about alcoholism. * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/56 "2000-04-02T05:57:00Z")
Hey, where did Pooch go? Out for a beer then off to a meeting to get his court card signed? : ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/57 "2000-04-02T06:02:00Z")
## Crystalguy, it’s obvious that any questioning of AA upsets you, but please try to listen. If alcoholism were a desease, then a physician would be able to diagnose that desease through an examination. Since most AA meetings are not run by physicians, I have doubts as to whether members of AA are the best people to be labeling it as such. If all you have is,“I believe in it, so I don’t have to prove anything to you!”, fine. You have decided to treat AA as a religion, and since most Christians will not worship two “gods” at the same time, I have to assume that you believe AA to be a Christian group. If on the other hand you wish to discuss the whys and wherefores of AA, be ready for people to _gasp!_ question the organization. If you want unquestioning followers, there are boards that do that type of thing. This ain’t one of them. Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/58 "2000-04-02T07:23:00Z")
slythe: First, aren’t you supposed to be out in the parking lot guarding the 7-11? > [@](#): > > desease You consistently misspell this word. Either go back to the school you dropped out of, or get a freaking spell checker. > [@](#): > > If alcoholism were a desease, then a physician would be able to diagnose that desease through an examination. Since most AA meetings are not run by physicians, I have doubts as to whether members of AA are the best people to be labeling it as such DUH. DOUBLE FUCKING DUH. Somebody who drinks waaaayy too much, loses jobs, crashes cars, goes to jail, etc., etc., is not enough of a _clue?_ > [@](#): > > You have decided to treat AA as a religion, and since most Christians will not worship two “gods” at the same time, I have to assume that you believe AA to be a Christian group. The fallacy of the **excluded middle.** Please go to your atheist website and learn to argue. > [@](#): > > If you want unquestioning followers, there are boards that do that type of thing. No one made such a request. You asked for information, you got it, and now you’re unhappy with it. Grow the fuck up. :: ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/59 "2000-04-02T12:36:00Z")
Okay, **Slythe,** you have applied your keen analytical rent-a-cop mind and have seen right through me. You are absolutely correct, I view AA as a religion. I go there only to worship God (as I understand him to be) and I stand ready to burn as a heretic anyone who questions my faith. At our AA church services, we do indeed wear dark, somber clothes and we sit for hours listening to a like-minded person harrangue us. I only wish that we could be harrangued by someone as sharp as you, someone who obviously knows everything about everything. Especially medical matters. See, after reading your posts in this thread, I have a severe pain in my ass—what do you think causes this? * * * Crystalguy ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693/60 "2000-04-02T14:58:00Z")
Cranial pressure? Since it is established that _any_ questioning of AA upsets you to no end, perhaps you should go find a more soothing board where people don’t ask those annoying questions. BTW, I have no problem with my line of work. Try some other juvenile insult. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-12-steps-to-submission/5693.md?page=4)