# The 1st Amendment is a MUCH bigger threat to America than the 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395 "2019-10-07T06:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/161 "2020-04-30T09:52:11Z")
Why did I start this thread if I choose not to engage with clods like Bryan Ekers? \*\*\*It’s a placeholder for posting links to views of people who agree with me! * * * Here’s a quote and a YouTube; I’ve lost track of how I chanced upon them. I probably got the links from SDMB threads! > [@](#): > > Trolls and bots are flooding social media with disinformation encouraging states to end quarantine…An analysis from Bot Sentinel, a bot tracking platform, found that bots and trolls have been stoking sentiments online that have fueled the protests, using hashtags like #ReopenAmericaNow and #StopTheMadness…Inauthentic accounts are amplifying disinformation and inaccurate statistics and sharing false information as a reason to reopen the country," Bouzy says. “Many of these accounts are also spreading bizarre conspiracy theories about Democrats using COVID-19 as a way to take away American freedoms and prevent Americans from voting.” [New lyrics to the Battle Hymn of the Republic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eR0ckpJ3bk). (When I checked this link just now, YouTube recommended [another great song with revised lyrics.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue5F57dZMU)) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/162 "2020-04-30T10:39:51Z")
I’ll tell you what, if you can write a fresh post summarizing your position on the inherent hazard of the First Amendment _without insulting your readers or suggesting their negative reaction somehow validates your argument_, I’ll be glad to respond in an entirely serious, thoughtful manner. As an act of good faith, and picking the one clear adult comment I can find in post #159 to respond to, your suggestion of modifying perjury laws is, I admit, interesting. It would be tricky, to say the least, to do so in the interest of fighting falsehoods without stepping on the concept of expert testimony, which involves getting someone who is not a witness to the specifics of a particular case to venture an opinion on the value of evidence gathered for that case. For the expert witness profiled in the Oliver segment, probably the best defense is Google itself, where the opposing side can research the witness’s background and compile a set of video clips (such clips being publicly available, as court transcripts should be barring some particular reason why they should not) showing a tendency of this witness to make stuff up, impeaching the witness’s credibility. This impeachment itself will get added to the public record, making it easier for future lawyers to challenge the witness, including bringing up whatever corporate interests are paying the witness. The response is increased disclosure, not regulation. Interestingly, I’ve been flipping through some old magazines my late father had collected and found a 1982 issue of _Newsweek_ that contained a two-page ad from The Tobacco Institute, ostensibly to answer the question “Does cigarette smoke endanger nonsmokers?” The ad uses a lot of vague language and includes what I consider to be a pretty blatant lie: “The researchers we fund are encouraged to publish whatever they find. Whatever the outcome.” Yeah… I doubt it. Fortunately, if such an ad was published today, anyone could quickly look up the studies cited including, as the ad oh-so-artfully reports, “A recent Japanese study made claims about lung cancer raters among nonsmokers. This got wide press coverage. But the validity of the study was seriously questioned in the medical literature by a variety of experts around the world.” No further details, including what the study actually concluded. For all we know, it might have said second-hand smoke was _good_ for you, except we know that it if it did, The Tobacco Institute would have been happy to publish _extensive_ details about it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/163 "2020-04-30T10:55:55Z")
By the way, the advertisement in question can be read [here](https://climatesight.org/tag/tobacco-institute/). It is the one marked as “Question 5”. The _Newsweek_ issue where I found it is from June 21, 1982. I count three full-page tobacco ads in the magazine itself, including the inside front cover and the back cover, plus a half-column ad for Ronson fuels and flints. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/164 "2020-04-30T12:04:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I want to review the six (6) sentences in OP. But first some preliminary remarks: > > - **This OP was posted in BBQ Pit.** Those who accuse me of not fostering a good debate in this thread might wish to review the modes and reasons for the several SDMB forums. Since my semi-autistic style just incites inchoate rage in others, I thought a more temperate Doper would be a better choice to OP such a thread in GD. Instead rageful Dopers just want to attack me. Fine! I hope it won’t hurt your feelings, but I know my own intellectual strengths and weaknesses better than you do: your insults flow off me like water off a duck’s back. > > - **Substitution of “Free speech” for 1st A and “Guns” for 2nd A in the title would have made the thread less confusing.** Yes. Better still, guns shouldn’t have been mentioned at all — the thread has nothing to do with Guns. We can characterize the unfortunate title in various ways; _“ **septimus** is stupid”_ may be as good as any; but _“ **septimus** suffers from (mild?) autism”_ might be more accurate and more charitable. Sending TWO messages with one sentence asked too much from readers. Still, the excessive attention on guns from both the pro- and anti- camps is very misplaced when _American society is being destroyed not by guns but by lies and propaganda._ > > - **Let me extend a big Thank You** to **Ravenman** and **Velocity** who were willing to understand and respond to the message, rather than play _Let’s Gang Up on the Messenger!_ > > - **Velocity** ’s recent post links to a must-read article … > > … that leads me into my final prefatory remark. **I do not have a solution.** Authoritarian states like China (or even Singapore!) may be better poised to deal with neo-modern problems, but I am NOT happy to embrace authoritarianism. I wish I had solutions to offer but I don’t. All I ever wanted with this thread was _ **to shine a spotlight on problems** _. But even in that, I failed. :o > > One helpful idea might be to strengthen perjury laws. In the John Oliver video I linked to above, we see a doctor paid to lie to legislatures who is apparently immune because he wasn’t under oath. Is that appropriate? > > Now let’s dissect OP. Setting aside quotes and parentheses it comprised just six (6) sentences. It appears this was too much. Next thread I start I’ll try to pack only 3 or 4 sentences into the OP. > > Here they are: > [ol][li]The 1st Amendment is a MUCH MUCH bigger threat to America than the 2nd Amendment. [/li][li] It is the 1st Amendment that is destroying our country.[/li][li] Just for starters it provokes disinformation and unifies haters.[/li][li] I expect to be attacked by BOTH the Left and the Right for this post.[/li][li] But note that I am not calling for a direct repeal of the First Amendment.[/li][li] I just want us all to FIRST grok what the real problems are; THEN we can seek solutions. … If it’s not too late.[/li][/ol] > Comments: > (1) “Free speech” — when that includes lying with impunity on the scale we see today — is a FAR greater threat to America than guns are. If y’all can’t see that, I’m afraid I’m going to have to start calling you “stupid” again. 🆒 > (2) Some of us are bitter about the 1st Amendment specifically since Scotus ruled, in a 5-4 vote, that the 1st Amendment gives corporations the right to buy elections with lies. But again, replace “1st A” with “unrestricted free speech” to improve clarity. > (4) I sure got this one right! 🙂 > (5),(6) Sorry that I didn’t put these sentences in a size-6 font. Would that have helped? I’ve gotta thank you, **septimus**. You’ve given me the inspiration for my next children’s book, **Timecube Goes Drunk Posting**. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/165 "2020-04-30T20:52:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I do not have a solution. You don’t. You surely don’t have a distillation. At the rate you’re going, you could wind up with a suspension. You’re definitely all wet. Oh, and since this is The Pit and you made a very clear distinction in your O.P., you’re another long-barrel sucker who strokes his 30-bullet magazines while looking at homicide porn. Nothing new here. You detest people who use their right to free speech but see exactly zero problem with all of those “very, very good people” who go around murdering children in schools. Yep. Thanks. We’ve all got your number. And you’re all wet. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/166 "2020-05-01T14:01:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ll tell you what, if you can write a fresh post summarizing your position on the inherent hazard of the First Amendment _without insulting your readers or suggesting their negative reaction somehow validates your argument_, I’ll be glad to respond in an entirely serious, thoughtful manner. > > As an act of good faith, and picking the one clear adult comment I can find in post #159 to respond to, your suggestion of modifying perjury laws is, I admit, interesting. Thank you for your thoughtful, almost kindish response. But a man must know his limitations and I cannot produce a good GD-style thread. Plenty of Dopers _could_ do so; maybe someone else will pursue the message after they tire of ridiculing the messenger. > [@](#): > > … Fortunately, if such an ad was published today, anyone could quickly look up the studies cited … Anyone? I think what you mean is that some motivated intelligent people could do so, though they would attract only a very tiny fraction of the lying ad’s audience unless they got a major network interested. And there are so many lies flowing at us that truth-tellers are swamped playing whack-a-mole. As further evidence that my communication skill is beyond salvage, look at this: > [@Cartooniverse](#): > > , you’re another long-barrel sucker who strokes his 30-bullet magazines while looking at homicide porn. Nothing new here. You detest people who use their right to free speech but see exactly zero problem with all of those “very, very good people” who go around murdering children in schools… It appears that **Cartooniverse** thinks I’m a gun nut. What do you think of that, **Bryan Ekers**? Do you see why I get frustrated and resort to ever-increasing font sizes? 😛 Would small fonts work better? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/167 "2020-05-01T14:35:37Z")
Yeah, I’m not seeing that the conditions I requested are being met. > [@septimus](#): > > Thank you for your thoughtful, almost kindish response. But a man must know his limitations and I cannot produce a good GD-style thread. Plenty of Dopers _could_ do so; maybe someone else will pursue the message after they tire of ridiculing the messenger. You making a pretense to victimhood _neither supports nor validates any arguments you might be making._ > [@](#): > > Anyone? I think what you mean is that some motivated intelligent people could do so, though they would attract only a very tiny fraction of the lying ad’s audience unless they got a major network interested. And there are so many lies flowing at us that truth-tellers are swamped playing whack-a-mole. Yes, but the \*power \*to instantly research and verify claims is, if anything, far more advanced than in 1982, but of course only those interested in putting in the effort will bother to do so. I’m not sure what modifications to perjury law you had in mind (of if you had any beyond a vague notion that modifications of some kind were needed), but we’re far closer to instant fact-checking than ever before. Lies, including corporate-greed-driven lies, have always been with us, but disclosure power has dramatically increased, suggesting the First Amendment is actually _not_ making the United States a worse place to live, let alone placing the republic in jeopardy. > [@](#): > > As further evidence that my communication skill is beyond salvage, look at this: > > It appears that **Cartooniverse** thinks I’m a gun nut. What do you think of that, **Bryan Ekers**? Do you see why I get frustrated and resort to ever-increasing font sizes? 😛 Would small fonts work better? I stated earlier that I didn’t see what relevance the 2nd Amendment had to an analysis of the hazards of the application of the 1st Amendment, and that included whatever your personal feelings on the 2nd might be. You might be a gun nut or not a gun nut; I don’t care either way, it’s as irrelevant as any aspect of the 2nd Amendment to this discussion. I didn’t care for the what-aboutism of invoking the 2nd in the OP, which I read as a variation of “All you people who care about abuse of the 2nd Amendment, what about the much much much worse abuses of the 1st Amendment?!?!” but if you don’t mention guns or the 2nd again, neither will I. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395/168 "2020-05-01T17:49:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Anyone? I think what you mean is that some motivated intelligent people could do so, though they would attract only a very tiny fraction of the lying ad’s audience unless they got a major network interested. And there are so many lies flowing at us that truth-tellers are swamped playing whack-a-mole. Be this as it may, it has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the First Amendment. Lies and propaganda have existed since well before the First Amendment, and they are alive and well in totalitarian dictatorships. North Korea, for instance, has the toughest laws prohibiting free speech on Earth. Would you say that it’s any more truthful than the US? And on that note, **septimus** , I’m having a hard time believing that there’s nothing you can do. You seem to have enough free time to go online and complain about the right to free speech. You have enough free time to create these whackadoo responses involving fonts and . . . well, OK, not much else, but you still strike me as someone with a lot, and I mean A LOT, of free time on his hands. You told us in big bold fonts about how you don’t have a solution. The solution, my man, is staring you right in the face. Have you _tried_ getting together with people to get the message out? Have you tried joining the ACLU, doing volunteer work, or basically attempting things that people seem to have had no trouble doing in the past 250 years since we formed the US? Get the hell off the webz, do something with your life in favor of the truth, or the Truth, or maybe even “The Truth,” and then come back and lecture us how stupid the First Amendment is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-amendment-is-a-much-bigger-threat-to-america-than-the-2nd-amendment/841395.md?page=8)