# The "1st world" of in the 19th c. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682 "2014-07-21T18:45:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/21 "2014-07-22T22:12:17Z")
Once they understood it, this would have been a tremendously contentious question in 1889. There was broad agreement (in Europe and North America) that the “first world countries” were the better nations of Europe, plus the United States (and maybe Canada, which tended to be an afterthought to everyone except the Canadians). But which were the better nations of Europe? The United Kingdom, France, and Germany were on pretty much everyone’s list, but agreement dropped off rapidly after that. The situation was particularly problematic for large countries, such as Austria-Hungary and Russia, which considered themselves the equal of anyone but were not always widely accepted as making the cut. Of course, in reality there were countries outside of Europe and North America that performed extremely well by most measures. The perception, however, was that civilization’s home was Europe, with the acknowledgment that the United States also had certain achievements. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/22 "2014-07-22T22:59:27Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In 1812/15 we were more than a little distracted by events closer to home - that pesky Napoleon. Britain was weary of war and pretty well broke, so no, we couldn’t win a war on the other side of the atlantic then. Except we did. We kicked their butts hard, and burned the White House. USA lost. Staff Report: > **[Straight Dope Staff Report: Did Canada win the War of 1812?](http://web.archive.org/web/20080226115234/http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mwar1812.htm)** > > Straight Dope Staff Report: Did Canada win the War of 1812? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/23 "2014-07-22T23:11:18Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Except we did. We kicked their butts hard, and burned the White House. USA lost. > > ] Wellington disagreed: _I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America… You have not been able to carry it into the enemy’s territory, notwithstanding your military success, and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territory on the point of attack. You cannot on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cession of territory except in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power… Then if this reasoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any._ Militarily a draw- morally a victory for the USA, given the David & Goliath circumstances. The USA gained some Spanish territory. The only real losers were the Indians. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/24 "2014-07-22T23:19:59Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Except we did. We kicked their butts hard, and burned the White House. USA lost. > > Staff Report: > [Straight Dope Staff Report: Did Canada win the War of 1812?](http://web.archive.org/web/20080226115234/http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mwar1812.htm) I like the take of Hark! A Vagrant, [Hark, a vagrant: 340](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=340), on the question of who won the War of 1812. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/25 "2014-07-22T23:25:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Militarily a draw- morally a victory for the USA, given the David & Goliath circumstances. Bwaa-ha-ha, ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/26 "2014-07-22T23:30:20Z")
In 1889 the United Kingdom had some perhaps the most advanced cities on earth but also had an impoverished and underdeveloped periphery in much of Ireland. The “[last witch burned in Ireland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Cleary)” case occurred in 1895. You also had the [Knock apparition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine#The_apparition) in 1879. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/27 "2014-07-23T16:01:16Z")
Can anyone chime in about European colonial cities in Africa during the era? From what I understand, at one time Mogadishu, Lagos, Luanda, Nairobi, and the like were quite pleasant by European/North American standards. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/28 "2014-07-23T16:45:00Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Except we did. We kicked their butts hard, and burned the White House. USA lost. So if the USA lost, what concessions were they forced to give the British during peace negotiations? The peace treaty simply ratified the status quo ante and reaffirmed the prewar boundaries. OK, the US didn’t annex Canada. Neither did the British re-establish control over the rebellious colonies. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/29 "2014-07-23T17:28:10Z")
Can we use some other terminology? “First World” makes no sense in this context because it refers specifically to the Western _capitalist_ bloc. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/30 "2014-07-23T17:32:18Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Can anyone chime in about European colonial cities in Africa during the era? From what I understand, at one time Mogadishu, Lagos, Luanda, Nairobi, and the like were quite pleasant by European/North American standards. A lot of different things would be going on in this period. Southern Africa had some established European-held cities like Cape Town and Luanda. Africa’s east coast would be dotted with Arab influenced trading cities dating to Medieval times. In West Africa, mostly there would be slave trading outposts and small forts with little reach. And as the scramble for Africa didn’t happen until the late 1800’s, most interior cities would be under African control. Some of these were quite nice and impressed European explorers. But it you are looking for classic colonialism, you probably need to wait till the early 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/31 "2014-07-23T18:48:37Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Mostly I’m saying that if a 19th century European walked in to a 19th century Chinese city, they’d think “Wow, that’s a decently nice city.” You’d have public parks and restaurants and classy hangout and great shopping. They in fact did walk in. After the Opium Wars, China was forced to grant concessions to European powers, who responded by reproducing little Europes in the International Settlements in Shanghai. They hated and disdained every single aspect of life in China and would have laughed in your face if you had suggested than any of those things existed. I suggest reading Stella Dong’s [Shanghai: The Rise and Fall of a Decadent City 1842-1949](http://www.amazon.com/Shanghai-Rise-Fall-Decadent-1842-1949/dp/0060934816) for a better picture of what relations between the cultures were like. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/32 "2014-07-23T18:50:31Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > In 1889 the United Kingdom had some perhaps the most advanced cities on earth but also had an impoverished and underdeveloped periphery in much of Ireland. The “[last witch burned in Ireland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Cleary)” case occurred in 1895. You also had the [Knock apparition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine#The_apparition) in 1879. Not too sure why religion would be considered “impoverished and underdeveloped”.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/33 "2014-07-23T19:16:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Can we use some other terminology? “First World” makes no sense in this context because it refers specifically to the Western _capitalist_ bloc. The point has been made several times. “Developed” vs “undeveloped” works better, but if you want to suggest something else go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/34 "2014-07-23T19:51:59Z")
I saw, but it seemed to have been ignored. I’m good with D v. UD. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/35 "2014-07-23T20:48:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not too sure why religion would be considered “impoverished and underdeveloped”.😕 Religion isn’t in and of itself a sign a place is impoverished and underdeveloped but apparitions aren’t all that common in first world communities/cities are they? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/36 "2014-07-23T21:11:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As has been said, the terms “First World,” “Second World,” and “Third World” were originally primarily political/ideological rather than economic. The terms in this sense are obsolete. > > Today the term “developed countries” covers most of the former First World. Some of the former Second World countries (e.g. Poland, Czech Republic) may also be included in this group. Other countries may be grouped as “developing” or “undeveloped.” Most former Third World countries, and some Second World, would fall in this group. > > Russia is certainly among the industrialized countries, but since the economic collapse following the fall of the Soviet Union it tends to be grouped with rising economic powers that were originally part of the Third World, such as India and Brazil. > > One could discuss countries in the 19th Century in these terms, with respect to the degree of industrialization and economic influence. Developed and developing seem like they also are too broad. Chile, China and Somalia are all developing nations but they are all at totally different stages of development and influence in the world. I thought low, middle and high income as well as things like the HDI index were used to rate nations now. Even that is kindof broad. The cutoff to ‘high income’ status is something like 14k per capita, about where many latin american nations are. But they are not near the state of development as western Europe, north America or Japan. As far as 125 years ago, I wonder what the HDI would have been of western europe or north america. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/37 "2014-07-27T02:19:23Z")
Here is the GDP per capita from 1913, as measured by Angus Madddison ```auto Australia 5715 United States 5301 Britain 5150 Canada 4447 Netherlands 4049 Argentina 3797 France 3485 Ireland 2736 Chile 2653 Spain 2255 Mexico 1732 Japan 1385 Peru 1037 South Korea 893 Sri Lanka 850 Brazil 811 China 552 ``` And yes, Argentina is the only major country that I know of that dropped from an upper income country to a middle income country. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682/38 "2014-07-28T18:01:41Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Religion isn’t in and of itself a sign a place is impoverished and underdeveloped but apparitions aren’t all that common in first world communities/cities are they? France? Spain?:dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-1st-world-of-in-the-19th-c/693682.md?page=1)