# The 2011 SDMB Baseball HoF Poll **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 5, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428 "2011-01-05T00:09:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/41 "2011-01-05T19:49:12Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Surprised Lee Smith fell off the ballot. Guess the saves record didn’t mean much. (he didn’t hold it that long though) You’re off the ballot if you get less than 5 percent of the vote. Smith’s support slipped to 45.3 percent from 47.3 percent. Another saves leader did fall off the ballot - John Franco. And so did Harold Baines, who hung on there for a while. Edgar Martinez got slightly fewer votes than last year, Jack Morris got slightly more. I think Morris has four years of eligibility left, so I don’t know if there is much chance he rises from 53.5 percent to 75 percent. Barry Larkin rose to 62.1 percent from 51.6 percent, so that looks good for him for next year. Raines’ support went to 37.5 percent from 30.9 percent, so maybe he’ll get there eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/42 "2011-01-05T19:54:57Z")
I’d guess Morris will make it eventually. The ballot is really position player-heavy - just Morris and Smith staying on. Is that normal, historically speaking? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/43 "2011-01-05T20:03:44Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I’m curious about those who voted for McGwire but not Palmeiro. Anyone want to offer any insight there? Well, I guess my reasons are (a) I’m from St. Louis so McGwire just seemed a “bigger” presence to me and (b) PED-realted stuff. In particular, I put a slightly different weight on players who used steroids in an era where cheating was basically sanctioned (pre-testing) and ones who were caught cheating by a league-administered test. I also believe that Palmeiro’s grandstanding at the Senate hearing was, in retrospect, much more shameful than McGwire’s behavior at the same hearing. In the end, neither are particularly strong reasons, I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/44 "2011-01-05T20:10:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Huh? Smith got 45% of the vote. He’ll be back next year. Only one player ever (Gil Hodges) has gotten over 50% and failed to make it into the Hall. I think Smith will top 50% next year. I was always on the fence with Blyleven but that 60 shutouts is very impressive. With his induction, now all 20 players with 50+ shutouts are enshrined. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/45 "2011-01-05T20:18:07Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Jack Morris gets over 50% and a better pitcher, Kevin Brown, falls off the ballot? Unbelievable. Brown has got a slight edge over Morris at best, while Morris was significantly more durable (600 more innings, nearly 100 more decisions in 1 fewer year), finished top 5 Cy Young 5 times as opposed to Brown’s 2, also his post season heroics don’t hurt his cause. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/46 "2011-01-05T20:25:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Brown has got a slight edge over Morris at best, while Morris was significantly more durable (600 more innings, nearly 100 more decisions in 1 fewer year), finished top 5 Cy Young 5 times as opposed to Brown’s 2, also his post season heroics don’t hurt his cause. And furthermore, there really aren’t that many guys who Morris pitched with who are much better than him. Clemens overlapped somewhat; Blyleven; Nolan Ryan; but most of the high-peak guys in the 80s had very short or uneven careers (Orel Hershiser, Frank Viola, Bret Saberhagen, Dwight Gooden, Dave Stieb to some degree). Whereas Brown was a contemporary of Clemens, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, and Randy Johnson, all of whom are obviously better than him, and several guys who most people would rank ahead of Brown (Schilling, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina). ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/47 "2011-01-05T21:20:44Z")
Who do we compare Edgar Martinez to? corner OF or 1B/3B? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/48 "2011-01-05T21:21:40Z")
I’d say Brown was more than a little bit better than Morris. Over half a run ERA is not an insignificant amount. I also, don’t get the best pitcher in the 80’s argument. Was pitching somehow more difficult in the 80’s? If there were 0 great pitchers in the 80’s and 8 great pitchers in the 90’s than so be it. Not that I think Morris was the best pitcher of the decade anyway. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/49 "2011-01-05T21:24:14Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I also, don’t get the best pitcher in the 80’s argument. Was pitching somehow more difficult in the 80’s? If there were 0 great pitchers in the 80’s and 8 great pitchers in the 90’s than so be it. Not that I think Morris was the best pitcher of the decade anyway. It only means IMO, that _every_ decade has a best player. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/50 "2011-01-05T21:40:42Z")
Dwight Gooden was the greatest pitcher in the 80’s, imho. His few years of dominance were more impressive than Morris’s decade of pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/51 "2011-01-05T21:45:05Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > It only means IMO, that _every_ decade has a best player. But so what? There has to be a best pitcher in every decade, and that pitcher should be in the hall because he was the pitcher of the decade? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/52 "2011-01-05T21:47:22Z")
Very glad Bert finally made it. He was by far the most qualified guy still waiting. The most slighted player in this year’s crop was Bagwell, and I can live with that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/53 "2011-01-05T22:20:50Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I’d say Brown was more than a little bit better than Morris. Over half a run ERA is not an insignificant amount. I also, don’t get the best pitcher in the 80’s argument. Was pitching somehow more difficult in the 80’s? If there were 0 great pitchers in the 80’s and 8 great pitchers in the 90’s than so be it. Not that I think Morris was the best pitcher of the decade anyway. It is really unusual; if Morris isn’t Hall of Fame caliber (and I really don’t think he is), then there isn’t a hall of fame starting pitcher whose career started between Bert Blyleven’s (1970) and Roger Clemens’ (1984); a 13-year gap. I don’t know if there’s a gap like it in the history of the game. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/54 "2011-01-05T22:25:40Z")
Jack Morris was a pretty good pitcher who pitched between eras of All Time Greats. When he started his career Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, and Byleven were all pretty much in their prime. When he finished up Maddux, Clemens, and Johnson were on their way. He never was in the conversation of the best pitcher in baseball, like those guys. As far as Pitcher of the 80s, according to [this article](http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-collusion-to-blame-for-jack-morris-hof-case/) he gained that moniker in 86 during the owner’s collusion and it stuck. [This](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5987228) really interesting article about hall of fame choices by Jayson Stark makes me look at Morris (And Larry Walker!) in a more positive light. I probably still wouldn’t vote for him, but I can see his reasoning. And, it did push me over into the Larry Walker camp. > [@Jas09](#): > > Well, I guess my reasons are (a) I’m from St. Louis so McGwire just seemed a “bigger” presence to me and (b) PED-realted stuff. > > In particular, I put a slightly different weight on players who used steroids in an era where cheating was basically sanctioned (pre-testing) and ones who were caught cheating by a league-administered test. I’m not sure what this means. They both started playing in 1986. How are they in different eras? Palmerio played 3 extra years, that’s why he doesn’t make the cut? Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind illogical reasoning, I already admitted that’s why I didn’t vote for McGwire. But, I am not getting the different era stuff at all. Also, I would like to pat myself on the back for correctly predicting who would get voted in in this very thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/55 "2011-01-05T22:31:16Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > Very glad Bert finally made it. He was by far the most qualified guy still waiting. Although not necessarily the most classy. > [@Bert Blyleven](#): > > And thank the baseball writers of America for, I’m going to say, finally getting it right. The good thing about the Hall of Fame is that few remember how long it took you to get elected or how gracious you were about it.\* \*with the exception of someone like Ty Cobb, who couldn’t be bothered to show up on time for the first Hall of Fame induction ceremony and missed the group photo. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/56 "2011-01-05T22:44:46Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > [This](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5987228) really interesting article about hall of fame choices by Jayson Stark makes me look at Morris (And Larry Walker!) in a more positive light. I probably still wouldn’t vote for him, but I can see his reasoning. And, it did push me over into the Larry Walker camp. Yeah - Walker has a very interesting case. The park effects make many dismiss his case out of hand, but he was a very, very good hitter outside of Coors as well. Add in some plus defense and he really probably deserves a bit more support than he will get. It also makes me wonder what type of response Jim Edmonds might get when he’s up. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what this means. They both started playing in 1986. How are they in different eras? Palmerio played 3 extra years, that’s why he doesn’t make the cut? > Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind illogical reasoning, I already admitted that’s why I didn’t vote for McGwire. But, I am not getting the different era stuff at all. It really does come down to those 3 years, yes. Or, put differently, if Palmeiro had stopped juicing when the new rules came down (and thus never got caught by MLB testing) I’d likely vote for him as well. To me there is a subtle distinction between admitting to using PEDs when they were tacitly sanctioned and getting caught using them when they were explicitly banned. It’s nitpicky, and doesn’t really stand up, and if pressed (or if I actually had a vote) I would probably include both of them. I could also point out the hypocrisy of writers demanding admissions and apologies from PED users before voting for them, and then giving _fewer_ votes to a player that did exactly that. And I should apologize for missing Larkin in this poll - he’s pretty obviously a HoFer as well, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/57 "2011-01-05T22:45:58Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > I’m not sure what this means. They both started playing in 1986. How are they in different eras? Palmerio played 3 extra years, that’s why he doesn’t make the cut? > Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind illogical reasoning, I already admitted that’s why I didn’t vote for McGwire. But, I am not getting the different era stuff at all. The difference is that Palmerio failed a drug test after baseball decided to care about steroids, and Mcgwire didn’t.. When Mcgwire took them they were, at best, vaguely against the rules, with no guidelines, testing, or punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/58 "2011-01-06T00:05:27Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > It is really unusual; if Morris isn’t Hall of Fame caliber (and I really don’t think he is), then there isn’t a hall of fame starting pitcher whose career started between Bert Blyleven’s (1970) and Roger Clemens’ (1984); a 13-year gap. I don’t know if there’s a gap like it in the history of the game. So I thought I’d check on this, and the longest 20th century gap before the Blyleven-to-Clemens gap is between Dizzy Dean and Lefty Gomez (1930) and Bob Feller (1936) - and that’s if you don’t count the three Negro Leaguers whose debuts fall in that period. There’s a five year gap between Waite Hoyt and Jesse Haines (1918) and Ted Lyons (1923). Even going back to the 19th century, the longest gap I could find was 7 years (twice) - John Clarkson to Amos Rusie and Cy Young to Rube Waddell. Data: Galvin 1875 keefe 1880 hoss 1881 clarkson 1882 Rusie 1889 young 1890 nichols 1890 waddell 1897 Willis 1898 chesbro 1899 mcginnity 1899 mathewson 1900 plank 1901 Joss 1902 brown 1903 bender 1903 walsh 1904 johnson 1907 marquard 1908 Mendez 1908 a Williams 1910 a alex 1911 pennock 1912 coveleski 1912 Rixey 1912 Faber 1914 vance 1915 Grimes 1916 Rogan 1917 a Hoyt 1918 Haines 1918 Foster 1923 a lyons 1923 Ruffing 1924 grove 1925 Paige 1927 (MLB debut 1948) Hubbell 1928 Dean 1930 Gomez 1930 Brown 1931 a Smith 1932 a Day 1934 a Feller 1936 Wynn 1939 Newhouser 1939 Spahn 1942 Lemon 1946 Roberts 1948 Ford 1950 Wilhelm 1952 b Koufax 1955 Bunning 1955 Drysdale 1956 Gibson 1959 Marichal 1960 Perry 1962 Niekro 1964 Hunter 1965 Palmer 1965 Jenkins 1965 Carlton 1965 Sutton 1966 Ryan 1966 Blyleven 1970 Gossage 1972 b Eck 1975 b Sutter 1976 b a - Negro Leaguer b - relief pitcher Dates from the [wikipedia list of hall of famers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Baseball_Hall_of_Fame) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/59 "2011-01-06T00:25:05Z")
The guys born from 1950-1962 who had HoF arms all blew them out fairly quickly: Gary Nolan/Don Gullett of the Reds, Fernando of course, Frank Tanana, several others. What they all have in common was that they were overworked in their early 20’s. Note I don’t include Fidyrich, as unlike his teammate Tanana he had no strikeout pitch and thus was unlikely to last long enough to get consideration even if his kindly manager (Ralph Houk) didn’t make him throw 24 complete games. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428/60 "2011-01-06T16:19:07Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Jack Morris was a pretty good pitcher who pitched between eras of All Time Greats. When he started his career Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, and Byleven were all pretty much in their prime. When he finished up Maddux, Clemens, and Johnson were on their way. He never was in the conversation of the best pitcher in baseball, like those guys. As far as Pitcher of the 80s, according to [this article](http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-collusion-to-blame-for-jack-morris-hof-case/) he gained that moniker in 86 during the owner’s collusion and it stuck. I don’t know how you can say Jack Morris was never in the conversation of best pitcher in baseball when the article you linked said writers referred to him as the best pitcher of the 80’s in 1986 and have continued to do so ever since. That would indicate that he sure must have been thought of as being in the conversation as best pitcher in baseball for that time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2011-sdmb-baseball-hof-poll/566428.md?page=4)