# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/21 "2017-09-27T20:52:30Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > The loss of deductions for state taxes is a pure screw you to California and NY and any other state with a decent State income tax will increase many peoples taxes a fair amount as well. I take this deduction and I’m fine with that. Nearly everyone who takes it makes over $100k. Now if that’s to offset someone with little income, fine. If I pay more so Joe Moneybags pays less, which may very well be the case, I’m less than thrilled. FWIW six states (CA NY NJ IL TX PA) claim more than half of this deduction. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/22 "2017-09-27T21:02:11Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I take this deduction and I’m fine with that. Nearly everyone who takes it makes over $100k. Is there a cite for that? Most people paying a mortgage in all but the end of the term Itemize deductions, and I don’t think 100k is much of a requirement for that. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/23 "2017-09-27T21:11:34Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Is there a cite for that? Most people paying a mortgage in all but the end of the term Itemize deductions, and I don’t think 100k is much of a requirement for that. I’d prefer a bit more detail, but this is from the Tax Foundation: > [@](#): > > The state and local tax deduction disproportionately benefits high-income taxpayers, with more than 88 percent of the benefit flowing to those with incomes in excess of $100,000. > **[The State and Local Tax Deduction: A Primer](https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/state-and-local-tax-deduction-primer/)** > > What is the state and local tax deduction? The state and local tax deduction has outlived its usefulness and the end of it satisfies the left and the right. Which I realize I may be misinterpreting. That’s the percent of the benefit, not the percent of the beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/24 "2017-09-27T21:11:47Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Is there a cite for that? Most people paying a mortgage in all but the end of the term Itemize deductions, and I don’t think 100k is much of a requirement for that. What are you looking for a cite for? The 100K figure? The state and local tax deduction is made up of both state income tax, real estate taxes, and other items. From the [NY Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/business/economy/state-local-income-tax-deduction.html?mcubz=3): > [@](#): > > Like most other deductions, the state and local tax provision primarily benefits wealthier taxpayers who itemize deductions. The Tax Policy Center’s report finds that households with annual incomes exceeding $100,000 would bear roughly 90 percent of the increase; those with incomes over $500,000 would absorb 40 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/25 "2017-09-27T21:18:41Z")
But see the way that’s written, if a thousand poors each deducts a penny and one Joe Moneybags deducts $100, then most of the benefit is indeed going to the wealthy. But precisely what I wrote is wrong, in that most people who take it are not making a lot of money. I don’t know the exact numbers. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/26 "2017-09-27T21:20:18Z")
I also benefit greatly from the state deduction, but I can’t make any good ideological case for it. If states want to have high taxes, good for them, but should the rest of the states effectively subsidize them? I expect that Republicans in CA will make a show of opposing this, but they realize that effectively increasing taxes on Californians will likely bolster Republicans in the state government, where they currently hold so few seats that they have zero political power. Based on demographics and history, I expect any Republican plan to increase taxes on people who make between about $70k and $200k (the coastal liberals with high wage income), decrease them slightly on people making less than that, and decrease them massively on people making, say, $500k and more. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/27 "2017-09-27T21:22:40Z")
$100k does put you in about the 73rd percentile, and about 70% of returns take the standard deduction. But since it’s not a clear line (there are people making $25k who itemize), I don’t think my “nearly everyone” is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/28 "2017-09-27T21:29:46Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I also benefit greatly from the state deduction, but I can’t make any good ideological case for it. If states want to have high taxes, good for them, but should the rest of the states effectively subsidize them? I also take this deduction. The case for it is that it represents double taxation from state then fed. Because the tax is paid to the state, an individual never had use of these funds so to pay tax on it again would be taxing the tax. It’s like, if sales tax is 10%, and an item is $50, you expect to pay $55 (50 _1.1), but under this proposal you paid $60.50 which is 1.1_55. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/29 "2017-09-27T21:33:26Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Which I realize I may be misinterpreting. That’s the percent of the benefit, not the percent of the beneficiaries. That’s what I was getting at. Not trying to be snarky, trying to work through the math, and having trouble finding the numbers. Anybody who itemizes, which the other article says is 30 percent, is probably deducting either state income or sales taxes. So anybody who would have a total itemized deduction + exemptions that is more than double the standard deduction would have in increase in that sub-area of the tax calculation. Which seems like it would be focused in areas of higher salary and cost of living/housing combined with higher state taxes, so over $100 salary makes sense for most of the people who would be paying more. I’m trying to work through the numbers of people who are middle class-ish who take that deduction, but would still benefit from the new way vs the people who would pay more. But basically I’m just ending up with so many guestimates and fudge factors,I’m realizing I should just give up, grab a beer, and wait for the people paid to sit at desks connected to tax stat databases to do the math for me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/30 "2017-09-27T21:39:38Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > T([PDF](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4061881/Read-the-complete-Republican-tax-plan-released.pdf)). Although even that is thin on many details.This was my first question as well. Why is three better than seven better than two/eleventysix/whatever? Tax brackets aren’t complicated, so I don’t see a simplicity argument. > > The larger standard deduction makes for a larger effective 0% bracket and eliminates the impact of what deductions they’re leaving in. So I don’t see anyone with low or middle income ending up paying more, but the devil is in the TBD details… Yes, the number of tax brackets do not complicate the Code. At all. If it is a GOP plan, the rich will pay less and the poor and middle class will pay more. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/31 "2017-09-27T21:44:35Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I take this deduction and I’m fine with that. Nearly everyone who takes it makes over $100k. Now if that’s to offset someone with little income, fine. > FWIW six states (CA NY NJ IL TX PA) claim more than half of this deduction. Hardly. I took it when my income was only $60K. Yeah? But those six states include most of the most populous states, making up well more than a third the USA Pop, so that makes sense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/32 "2017-09-27T21:47:07Z")
Are they going to try to pass this before September 30th of 2017? or is this for next year? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/33 "2017-09-27T21:48:31Z")
Eliminating the estate tax is the most drastic change that I see, the rest is just adjusting knobs, and there’s not enough detail about how they’ll be set. I’m not surprised at all that it’s the Trump administration who’s the one to try to eliminate this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/34 "2017-09-27T21:48:49Z")
[Here is a link to the article](https://apnews.com/975cdb3767654ea8a9f29675c407030d/AP-FACT-CHECK:-Smoke-and-mirrors-in-Trump-tax-plan): > [@](#): > > TRUMP: “I think there’s very little benefit for people of wealth.” — to reporters Wednesday > > THE FACTS: Actually there’s a clear and substantial benefit for people of super wealth: the proposal to eliminate the estate tax. Under current law, the first $11 million of an estate is exempt for a married couple, meaning only the wealthiest Americans pay it. Those super-rich would be off the hook. Also, business owners who report business income on their individual returns — as most do — would see their top tax rate drop to 25 percent from 39.6 percent. > > Some of Trump’s claim rests with the administration’s own unique accounting. The administration has said it isn’t including the estate tax when making calculations about which income groups would benefit from the plan. Nor is it clear how Trump officials are weighing the benefits of the lower corporate taxes — which would primarily help investors. > > More generally, the plan has so many holes — left for Congress to fill in — that a full picture of who gains the most cannot be drawn at the outset. The plan could well benefit both the rich and the middle class, at the cost of national debt, but that remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/35 "2017-09-27T21:51:35Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > guestimates and fudge factors Given the amount of detail in this plan, that’s probably the best we’re going to get at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/36 "2017-09-27T21:57:37Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Eliminating the estate tax is the most drastic change that I see, the rest is just adjusting knobs, and there’s not enough detail about how they’ll be set. Given that the estate tax is only like $20B in revenue each year, and that we’re talking about trillions of dollars in increased deficit, I doubt that’s the most drastic change. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/37 "2017-09-27T21:58:38Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Given the amount of detail in this plan, that’s probably the best we’re going to get at this point. In that case my numbers show that my taxes will go down by 15 Billion dollars and Mexico will pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/38 "2017-09-27T22:05:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hardly. I took it when my income was only $60K. And now we now who reads the entire thread before posting. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah? But those six states include most of the most populous states, making up well more than a third the USA Pop, so that makes sense. :rolleyes: So you agree that these six states benefit disproportionately. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/39 "2017-09-27T22:07:10Z")
The estate tax provides less than 1% of the federal budget. The point of it is not to collect revenue, but to slow wealth accumulation. It’s a drop in the bucket that can be easily made up with other small increases, but it would represent a large shift in policy if it were dropped. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/40 "2017-09-27T22:45:44Z")
Trickle-down is gonna work this time, believe me. Bigly! More voodoo economics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=3)