# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/481 "2017-11-13T05:15:17Z")
They figure you won’t need to deduct medical expenses because once you see what this tax plan will do, you’ll wish you were dead. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/482 "2017-11-13T09:46:34Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Fuck me, if only. Lemme check my taxes from last year, to see how bad the damage will get. I had a $29k stipend and $50k in tuition remission. > > … $2333 in federal taxes… becomes $11650. Once I add in FICA and state taxes, that means I go from a take-home pay of $1980/month down to $1200/month. > > I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that this would decimate US science and higher education. This can’t be intentional, can it? Even the anti-science crusaders like Lamar Smith think there’s some value in engineering and biomedical research… right? Wow! The tuition remission becomes fully taxable? The GOP is anti-science and anti-education so they decimate science and education. Logical. \*\*\*The Trump-Ryan plan really does target the people who voted against the GOP. \*\*\* The urban middle-class votes (D) so their mortgage and local tax deductions are removed. Give the GOP credit for shrewdness, even if it’s shrewdness wholly in support of evil. And when you’re reduced to eating dog-food, pat yourself on the back. 🙂 Your sacrifice will help relieve the pain of our struggling over-taxed billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/483 "2017-11-13T10:34:24Z")
I still laugh at this when I think of a President who can’t offer his tax returns. He is some piece of work. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/484 "2017-11-13T13:14:48Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Fuck me, if only. Lemme check my taxes from last year, to see how bad the damage will get. I had a $29k stipend and $50k in tuition remission. > > Filing singly in 2016, that works out to $2333 in federal taxes. According to [this calculator](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-trump-tax-calculator-what-do-you-owe-2017-10-26), under the new tax plan I’d pay $10900 in federal taxes. An email I got from the university puts the estimated tax even higher, at $11650. Once I add in FICA and state taxes, that means I go from a take-home pay of $1980/month down to $1200/month. > > I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that this would decimate US science and higher education. This can’t be intentional, can it? Even the anti-science crusaders like Lamar Smith think there’s some value in engineering and biomedical research… right? My numbers are a little old. Thanks for sharing yours Tuition is a weird number because no student (in science PhD programs) pays it. What I’m not sure is if the proposal only covers TA tuition waivers or if it also would tax tuition paid out of a professor’s grants, in which case the granting agency is actually transferring funds for tuition. I need to read the relevant section. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/485 "2017-11-13T15:04:09Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Is there a name for this rhetorical tactic? > > Last time I saw it, it was used in a discussion about size of gun magazines. Something like “Why 13 bullets, rather than 12 or 14?” in a push to say that ANY magazine restriction was wrong (except I don’t recall exact numbers). So is there a name for this type of argument that depends on this kind of line-drawing? I was thinking “slippery slope”, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Rhetorical tactic? Really? I call it “Asking someone to clarify their view on a topic” ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/486 "2017-11-13T22:57:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Rhetorical tactic? Really? > > I call it “Asking someone to clarify their view on a topic” Okay, help me out and clarify your views. Do you really think it’s impossible to draw such lines? Or do you just want this tax to go away? If that’s the case, yes, rhetorical trick. People have been setting all kinds of lines for years. Not just levels of income, but tax rates. Why 20% and not 20.1%? And in many other walks of life. Why does this crime get me locked up for 10 years, why not 9.9 years? Why does stealing this $value become a felony, while stealing that $value is only a misdemeanor? Why can this 21 year old legally drink, but his 20 year (and 364 day) old buddy can’t? Why is that item priced $9.99 and not $8.99? And on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/487 "2017-11-13T23:58:35Z")
[Congress’s own nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation says the Senate Republican tax overhaul actually would increase taxes for some 13.8 million moderate-income American _households_](https://apnews.com/70f3855dbe734fdd8a3bb00f8daaa15f/Bipartisan-analysis:-Senate-bill-would-hike-taxes-for-13.8M). That’s a little over 10% of the nations approximately 125 million households that would see a tax increase in just the first year (2019) and it only gets worse from there: > [@](#): > > The analysis found that the Senate measure would actually increase taxes in 2019 for 13.8 million households earning less than $200,000 a year. That group, about 10 percent of all taxpayers, would face tax increases of $100 to $500 in 2019. There also would be increases greater than $500 for a number of taxpayers, especially those with incomes between $75,000 and $200,000. By 2025, 21.4 million households would have steeper tax bills. > > The analysts previously found a similar magnitude of tax increases under the House bill. > [@](#): > > The committee’s senior Democrat, Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon, said the legislation has become “a massive handout to multinational corporations and a bonanza for tax cheats and powerful political donors.” ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/488 "2017-11-14T00:08:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They figure you won’t need to deduct medical expenses because once you see what this tax plan will do, you’ll wish you were dead. But will the new healthcare plan cover euthanasia costs? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/489 "2017-11-14T02:22:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Congress’s own nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation says the Senate Republican tax overhaul actually would increase taxes for some 13.8 million moderate-income American _households_](https://apnews.com/70f3855dbe734fdd8a3bb00f8daaa15f/Bipartisan-analysis:-Senate-bill-would-hike-taxes-for-13.8M). That’s a little over 10% of the nations approximately 125 million households that would see a tax increase in just the first year (2019) and it only gets worse from there: Interesting. I wonder if the realization of just how screwed the sitting Pubs are in 2018 has reached critical. Many of them just don’t have a path to stay far-right enough for the deplorables to win the primaries, without throwing away any chance in the General. I wonder if enough of them are just going to abandon any pretense of working for their constituents and vote to fuck em over for the promise of 30 Pieces of Koch silver post-congress. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/490 "2017-11-14T09:21:38Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Interesting. I wonder if the realization of just how screwed the sitting Pubs are in 2018 has reached critical. Many of them just don’t have a path to stay far-right enough for the deplorables to win the primaries, without throwing away any chance in the General. I wonder if enough of them are just going to abandon any pretense of working for their constituents and vote to fuck em over for the promise of 30 Pieces of Koch silver post-congress. The sitting Pubs will be screwed by this massive transfer from the middle class to the super-rich? I doubt it. FoxNews is still touting the kleptomania as a middle-class tax cut, CNN is still looking for that missing airliner, Rachel Maddow is preaching to the converted, and the American public is still focused on Hillary’s unpleasant cackle. In the unlikely event that American news media starts reporting news, Drumpf will quickly throw them off with a couple of bombastic tweets. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/491 "2017-11-14T10:53:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The sitting Pubs will be screwed by this massive transfer from the middle class to the super-rich? . No they are fucked in general from the political climate. They can’t be re-elected in 2018 regardless of what the legislature does. So absent personal morals(snicker) many of them may abandon even pretending to work for their voters, and blatantly sell out their vote to the Kochs. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/492 "2017-11-14T11:57:31Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Is there a name for this rhetorical tactic? > > Last time I saw it, it was used in a discussion about size of gun magazines. Something like “Why 13 bullets, rather than 12 or 14?” in a push to say that ANY magazine restriction was wrong (except I don’t recall exact numbers). So is there a name for this type of argument that depends on this kind of line-drawing? I was thinking “slippery slope”, but that doesn’t seem right to me. You may be looking for the [Sorites paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox), or the “paradox of the heap.” How many grains of sand exactly do you need before you have a heap of sand? Can you defend your answer, that one fewer grain of sand no longer comprises a heap? If not, your position collapses! There are plenty of things that exist on a spectrum, not in a binary state, but that we must adjudicate in a binary fashion. Setting arbitrary lines is the only practical way to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/493 "2017-11-14T22:04:36Z")
So, what about this new health-care repeal wedged into the law? My wife is tuned into the Indivisible movement, makes tons of calls and networks with people and tells me that the bill just earned a lot of new enemies (including major parts of the health care industry). Do folks have predictions about how this is gonna proceed, or good articles to read? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/494 "2017-11-15T12:51:39Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > No they are fucked in general from the political climate. They can’t be re-elected in 2018 regardless of what the legislature does. So absent personal morals(snicker) many of them may abandon even pretending to work for their voters, and blatantly sell out their vote to the Kochs. Yes, we can hope the kleptomaniac GOP is entering its death throes. Optimism is good, I’m told. The evidence may support your view. The Trump-Ryan Administration seems intent on doing as much damage as it can in its first year or two; does the extreme blatancy mean they don’t really hope for re-election? They are decimating government science; decimating all pro-citizen government regulations (pro-corporation regulations are generally left intact); decimating Departments like State, Energy, Education. And, as in thread topic, trying to orchestrate a huge transfer of income (and hence wealth) from the middle class to the super-rich. They’re even vindictively screwing all anti-GOP citizens: revising deduction rules to hit the “blue middle-class”; making tuition waivers taxable (a big blow to education and science — are they just hateful because scientists and the educated tend to vote (D) 😕 ); … and they even want the petty elimination of a tiny bicycle subsidy. :smack: If/when sanity returns to Washington, how hard will it be to undo most of this damage? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/495 "2017-11-15T13:09:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes, we can hope the kleptomaniac GOP is entering its death throes. Optimism is good, I’m told. I’m not saying a Republican can’t win those seats. Just that the sitting member can’t win in many case. I don’t think Trump’s support in the GOP will erode that far by then, and Bannon will do everything he can to put up a hardliner Trumpist against them. And if they go right to block it will hurt them big time in the general. But if the sitting guy takes his payoff, and lets a Deplorable have the nomination unopposed, without needing to put too much on the record, it might be a different story in The general. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/496 "2017-11-15T16:14:33Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Okay, help me out and clarify your views. > > Do you really think it’s impossible to draw such lines? > > Or do you just want this tax to go away? If that’s the case, yes, rhetorical trick. I don’t want the tax to go away. I was simply asking what that poster thought. My view is any gift or inheritance income or similar income should just be taxed at the tax rate of the person getting the gift or inheritance. Just another line on the tax form that says “Amount received in gifts and/or inheritance” and it’s added into your income. Seems pretty easy to me. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/497 "2017-11-15T20:30:26Z")
[The AP is reporting that the GOP is trying to move very quickly on this](https://apnews.com/8cb3db26b4e54f76920b9c605d8851bf/Republicans-set-stage-for-crucial-tax-overhaul-votes): > [@](#): > > The [Senate] Finance committee was hoping to approve the measure by week’s end. A separate version of the bill cleared a procedural hurdle in the House on Wednesday on a 235-191 party-line vote. The House is expected to pass its legislation on Thursday. If they stay in lockstep, it might happen, but they keep changing their plan. In addition to trying to remove the IM part of the PPACA, Orrin Hatch made some changes to his bill (and did not make others): > [@](#): > > In another money-saving move, Hatch changed his bill late Tuesday to abruptly end the personal tax reductions after 2025. Under Senate rules, if legislation bill drives up federal budget deficits after 10 years it cannot be shielded from bill-killing filibusters by Democrats. It takes 60 votes to end a filibuster, numbers Republicans don’t have. > > The corporate tax cuts would be permanent. They include dropping the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent. > [@](#): > > “My colleagues on the other side have now shown their hand. The corporate handouts are permanent, the family breaks are not,” said Oregon Sen. Ron Wyden, top Democrat on the Finance Committee. “To pay for these handouts to multinational corporations, millions of Americans are going to lose their health care, millions will see their premiums skyrocket, and millions will get hit with a tax hike.” No hearings on any of this, either; just people playing with numbers and then a quick vote. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/498 "2017-11-15T20:48:00Z")
I’m starting to think (fear) that a bill is going to pass, and it’s going to have most of the bad stuff in it. The only up side, is this might seal the GOPs fate in the midterms. This is NOT a popular bill. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/499 "2017-11-15T20:59:33Z")
I’ve already moved past that, because IMO it will be a miracle if they don’t pass _something_, just to be able to say they passed something. My fear is that they are willing to do so because someone has crunched the numbers and they know they stand a good chance of not suffering many losses at all in 2018 due to the extensive gerrymandering done at the start level over the past 20 years. They’ll fuck us all and then hide behind the laws they themselves put in place and then fuck us some more. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/500 "2017-11-15T21:09:34Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [The AP is reporting that the GOP is trying to move very quickly on this](https://apnews.com/8cb3db26b4e54f76920b9c605d8851bf/Republicans-set-stage-for-crucial-tax-overhaul-votes):If they stay in lockstep, it might happen, but they keep changing their plan. In addition to trying to remove the IM part of the PPACA, Orrin Hatch made some changes to his bill (and did not make others):No hearings on any of this, either; just people playing with numbers and then a quick vote. Meh, my premiums were skyrocketing long before this bill came along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=26)