# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/501 "2017-11-15T21:11:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Yep. A flat tax would change the part of the current tax code that’s already simple and make it a tiny bit simpler. People who say they want a flat tax because of simplicity don’t know what they’re talking about, or are being misleading. This is what bugs me. The tax code could have 50 times as many tax brackets and it could still be 1000 times simpler than it is now, and be done on the world’s simplest excel spreadsheet. The number of brackets is not what makes it complicated at all. [Ron Johnson is a no.](https://www.wsj.com/articles/republican-sen-ron-johnson-opposes-gop-senate-tax-package-1510777290) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/502 "2017-11-15T21:13:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Meh, my premiums were skyrocketing long before this bill came along. I get that. I’ve also noticed that over the last couple of years, as I enter my forties, I’m developing more aches and pains in my body. So when I hear that my senator is planning on whacking me all over with a ball peen hammer, I’m like you: I say, “Meh. My pains were skyrocketing long before this hammer came along.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/503 "2017-11-15T21:13:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > …My fear is that they are willing to do so because someone has crunched the numbers and they know they stand a good chance of not suffering many losses at all in 2018 due to the extensive gerrymandering done at the start level over the past 20 years. … If anything, the massive swings in the partisan makeup of the House in recent years seem to demonstrate that neither party is very good at ‘crunching the numbers’ or knowing whether they stand a good chance of winning or losing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/504 "2017-11-16T20:29:09Z")
[The House passed it 227-205](https://apnews.com/40654a28737a420d8509a9a542bd4006/House-OKs-GOP-tax-bill-in-Trump-win;-Senate-fate-less-clear). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/505 "2017-11-16T21:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Thirteen Republicans — all but one from high-tax California, New York and New Jersey — voted “no” because the plan would erase tax deductions for state and local income and sales taxes and limit property tax deductions to $10,000. Good. Hopefully the Senate passes it without any Republican votes from CA, NY, and NJ too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/506 "2017-11-16T21:25:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Yep. A flat tax would change the part of the current tax code that’s already simple and make it a tiny bit simpler. People who say they want a flat tax because of simplicity don’t know what they’re talking about, or are being misleading. Thinking about this more, I’d settle for a flat tax for corporations. Think of how much they would save on lawyers and accountants! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/507 "2017-11-17T13:52:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I never expected to hear the argument that giving your child lunch money is indistinguishable in principle from giving them a private island and a bunch of airplanes. Well, at least they’ve got the “airplanes” part covered: [Senate bill includes tax break on private jets](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/360785-senate-tax-bill-includes-tax-break-for-private-jets) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/508 "2017-11-17T14:03:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, at least they’ve got the “airplanes” part covered: > > [Senate bill includes tax break on private jets](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/360785-senate-tax-bill-includes-tax-break-for-private-jets) Ha. Well, based on the principle that private jets and school lunches are indistinguishable, I’m sure there’s something to help hungry kids in that tax bill. There must be. Just keep looking. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/509 "2017-11-17T14:32:49Z")
The excise tax on aviation management fees is quite different than taxes levied on estates passed to heirs. I get that the tax bills are complex, and Im not a fan of all of the proposals, but these two things are not the same in any way. As background, the tax that is described hasn’t been enforced for a few years IIRC. A ruling in 2012 put the excise tax in question and since then it’s been in limbo. For several years various efforts to eliminate the confusion and the excise tax have taken place. Here is some [background from 2013](https://www.nbaa.org/admin/taxes/federal/fet/management-fees/) and a bit more [from industry in 2016](https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-09-14/industry-looks-lawmakers-end-managed-fee-controversy). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/510 "2017-11-17T15:05:41Z")
Maybe in the name of fairness, there should be an excise tax on school lunches! ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/511 "2017-11-18T05:13:40Z")
Well I saw one hell of a U-turn tonight. A complete Trumpist who spent the last three weeks talking about how the Trump tax cut is finally going through and the damn commies were gonna have to bend over and take it, was suddenly preaching about how he was going to be writing a letter to tell his congressman to go to hell for voting for it, and everybody should do the same. Apparently the Grandson who he can’t stop talking about, because he is a prestigious grad program at an Ivy league school, started checking around for backup career options because there is no way he could afford to stay in the program if covered tuition is taxed as income. Damn those insidious commies are everywhere, even in the families of true patriots ;( ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/512 "2017-11-18T09:30:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Good. Hopefully the Senate passes it without any Republican votes from CA, NY, and NJ too. @ **HurricaneDitka** — It’s good that we have a real Republican to learn from. Can you help us here? Is it true that most of the tax savings will accrue to the rich and that millions of the middle class (but not the rich) will see their taxes rise after a few years? Is the economic recovery so anemic (despite record stock prices) that another stimulus is needed? The tax cuts will cause the deficit to balloon. Is this a bug or a feature? The plan calls for the elimination of many deductions enjoyed in blue states, or by urban blue middle-class. Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/513 "2017-11-18T16:08:03Z")
Without hearings, the main way the public has to find out any [information on this tax bill](https://apnews.com/f025deb2c7444f338c600ba5a67a09b0/Tax-filers-in-most-states-claim-deduction-targeted-by-GOP) is thru the media, and now people are hearing loud and clear: > [@](#): > > A popular deduction targeted in the GOP’s overhaul of the tax code is used by more than a quarter of all filers in a majority of states, including many led by Republicans where some residents eventually could see their federal tax bills rise. > > The exact effect in every state isn’t known, in part because of differences in the Senate and House versions of the bill. But the change to the deduction for state and local taxes could alter the bottom lines for millions of taxpayers who itemize. > [@](#): > > Republicans say that provision would be a net benefit for most tax filers. “As long as 51% are good with it, it’s a good thing!” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > “Based on what I have seen, it might actually help some Georgians” to replace the state-and-local tax break with a higher standard deduction, said Georgia state Rep. Terry England, the Republican chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. Nice dodge, eh? Now he’s lowered the bar from 51% to “at least 1 person”. > [@](#): > > Democratic lawmakers said that any initial tax relief felt by the middle class or working-class families will eventually disappear. In Georgia, for example, an estimated 9 percent of filers would pay higher taxes in 2018, rising to 22 percent by 2027, according to an analysis by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. > [@](#): > > The House version would repeal the deduction for income and sales taxes while capping the property tax deduction at $10,000. The Senate bill would end deductions for all state and local taxes. No hearings at all on the largest proposed tax reform in over 30 years, AFAIK. None. Is this how our government is supposed to function? And as I said before, I’m almost positive they’ll pass _something_. These tax plans seem to me like an acknowledged disaster: the way they are designed to pay off now and squeeze later makes it obvious that the plan doesn’t work _as a tax plan_. It’ll work fine as a way of using the might and muscle of the federal government to line the pockets of the already wealthy and powerful in a blatant attempt to promote oligarchy, I’ll give it that tho. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/514 "2017-11-18T16:52:45Z")
I for one can’t wait to stop being able to write off my mortgage interest! Thanks, Republicans, on behalf of the middle class! Whatever I have to do to help the rich get a leg up in this world! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/515 "2017-11-18T17:12:10Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I for one can’t wait to stop being able to write off my mortgage interest! Thanks, Republicans, on behalf of the middle class! Whatever I have to do to help the rich get a leg up in this world! If you have a new mortgage in excess of $500,000, you probably don’t need the deduction. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/516 "2017-11-18T18:22:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > @ **HurricaneDitka** — It’s good that we have a real Republican to learn from. Can you help us here? I’ll try. > [@septimus](#): > > Is it true that most of the tax savings will accrue to the rich and that millions of the middle class (but not the rich) will see their taxes rise after a few years? My understanding is that your “millions” is some small percentage of the middle class and that most of the middle class will see a tax cut. Yes, most of the income tax savings will accrue to the people that pay most of the income taxes. That’s not surprising to me, and probably shouldn’t be to you. > [@septimus](#): > > Is the economic recovery so anemic (despite record stock prices) that another stimulus is needed? Not particularly, and I don’t think that’s the claim Republicans are generally making. It’s more like ‘the economy is doing great under Trump, and it can do ever more amazing if we get this tax cut done’ > [@septimus](#): > > The tax cuts will cause the deficit to balloon. Is this a bug or a feature? Definitely not a feature. I suspected early on that I’d be disappointed in the Republicans and Trump’s deficit spending, and they’ve lived down to those expectations. > [@septimus](#): > > The plan calls for the elimination of many deductions enjoyed in blue states, or by urban blue middle-class. Coincidence? Probably not, but I don’t know. I felt like Obama and his allies in Congress were doing things particularly to harm red states and rural conservatives during his tenure, and that it wasn’t a coincidence. Seems like par for the course in Washington these days. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/517 "2017-11-18T20:22:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ll try. > > My understanding is that your “millions” is some small percentage of the middle class and that most of the middle class will see a tax cut. Yes, most of the income tax savings will accrue to the people that pay most of the income taxes. That’s not surprising to me, and probably shouldn’t be to you. They aren’t just saving in dollars, they are saving as a percentage of their income as well. Is it really not that surprising to you that the wealthiest amongst us pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes than the middle class? To be honest, it’s not really all that surprising to me, given that the people who make the most money also have the most influence over lawmakers, it’s just counterproductive to a prosperous society. > [@](#): > > Not particularly, and I don’t think that’s the claim Republicans are generally making. It’s more like ‘the economy is doing great under Trump, and it can do ever more amazing if we get this tax cut done’ But, the economy was doing great under Obama, and Trump hasn’t really changed anything at all. Taxes and monetary policy are the same as when Obama left office. Regulations may be being cut, but I’ve yet to see a single job come from a cut regulation. So, it’s more like, “The economy is doing great using the policies that I disagree with for political reasons, lets change all of those policies and see what happens.” Might turn out well, but I doubt it. > [@](#): > > Definitely not a feature. I suspected early on that I’d be disappointed in the Republicans and Trump’s deficit spending, and they’ve lived down to those expectations. So, what cuts would you suggest? More cuts to education and health and housing programs for the poor? Take the mortgage deduction down to 250k, 100k, or even just eliminate it altogether? Find more ways of increasing the taxes on students? Or, would it be acceptable to have those who have the most, and have benefited the most from our society to pay back a bit more? > [@](#): > > Probably not, but I don’t know. I felt like Obama and his allies in Congress were doing things particularly to harm red states and rural conservatives during his tenure, and that it wasn’t a coincidence. Seems like par for the course in Washington these days. Really? What did Obama and the dems do to particularly harm red states and rural conservatives? Please, first cite what the harms done to rural and red states by the Obama admin, and then show that there was intent. I don’t really see either, but I’m looking from a different perspective, so I am curious as to what harms a conservative feels were put upon them by the Democrats being in charge for a lil bit did. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/518 "2017-11-18T20:28:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding is that your “millions” is some small percentage of the middle class and that most of the middle class will see a tax cut. Yes, most of the income tax savings will accrue to the people that pay most of the income taxes. That’s not surprising to me, and probably shouldn’t be to you. Who cares if anyone is surprised. The point is that this is completely irresponsible and has no purpose other than to further enrich the wealthy. If you think people are complaining because the rich will pay less number of dollars in taxes than the middle class, you need to be informed that it’s not the absolute money saved, or even the proportion of money saved, it’s that the wealthy will receive around a 10% tax cut when the working class gets a hike or a piddling 1% cut. That is sickening when the wealth gap is already at an all time high. > [@](#): > > Probably not, but I don’t know. I felt like Obama and his allies in Congress were doing things particularly to harm red states and rural conservatives during his tenure, and that it wasn’t a coincidence. Seems like par for the course in Washington these days. I’m genuinely curious, what did Obama do to particularly harm red states and rural conservatives? Surely you have an example ready. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/519 "2017-11-18T20:39:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My understanding is that your “millions” is some small percentage of the middle class and that most of the middle class will see a tax cut. Yes, most of the income tax savings will accrue to the people that pay most of the income taxes. That’s not surprising to me, and probably shouldn’t be to you. It should also be noted that: 1. Most of the “middle class tax cuts” have been set to expire so as not to explode the deficit in future years. The corporate tax cut, however is permanent. (Both can, of course be changed by future Congresses, but that’s a separate matter.) 2. The richer folks pay most of the income tax-- that’s true. But it would still be trivial to give a tax cut to the middle class without giving one to the rich. If it’s good policy to give the rich a tax cut, then make that argument. But just saying that the rich should get the lion’s share of the tax cut is neither here nor there. It needn’t be so unless we specifically want it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/520 "2017-11-18T20:44:25Z")
The thing is, **John** , the GOP leadership and donors prolly don’t feel they need to make that argument. For one, I think they think it is self-evidently the right thing to do and for another, they know that no one can stop them. They don’t have to justify it to get it done, and we all know it’s harder to undo a law than to make a new one; I think they are counting on inertia being their friend in coming years with regard to the corporate tax rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=27)