# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/541 "2017-11-19T00:09:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I see much of the Republican advocacy for the tax plan to be along the lines of: “we’re cutting taxes for everyone, not just the rich.” Here’s [Paul Ryan’s press release regarding the tax plan](https://paulryan.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=398771). I see references to the middle class and the lower class (many of whom don’t pay any income tax anyway), but I don’t see any mention of “the rich” in it. > [@](#): > > Today you finally get what you’ve anxiously been awaiting: The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (we’re excited, too). > > Paul has been talking about how tax reform will help middle- and lower-income earners, whether it’s in Massachusetts, Oregon, Pennsylvania, or Washington. When Paul meets with his employers, hardworking taxpayers tell him that their taxes are too high, filing their taxes is too complicated, and the current code punishes businesses of all sizes who make things in America. > > That could soon all change with the introduction of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. With this bill, a typical middle-income family of four, earning $59,000 (the median household income), will receive a $1,182 tax cut. This bill will also: > > Lower individual tax rates for low- and middle-income Americans to 0%, 12%, 25%, and 35% so people can keep more of the money they earn throughout their lives and maintains the 39.6% rate for high-income Americans; > Significantly increase the standard deduction to protect roughly double the amount of what you earn each year from taxes – from $6,350 to $12,000 for individuals and $12,700 to $24,000 for married couples; > Keep retirement savings options such as 401(k)s and Individual Retirement Accounts unchanged so Americans can continue to save for their future; > Continue the deduction for charitable contributions so people can continue to donate to their local church, charity, or community organization and preserve the home mortgage interest deduction for existing mortgages and maintains the home mortgage interest deduction for newly purchased homes up to $500,000 – providing tax relief to current and aspiring homeowners. > And for businesses like the many Paul has toured in recent months, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act will: > > Reduce the tax rate on the hard-earned business income of Main Street job creators to no more than 25% – the lowest tax rate on small business income since World War II. > Establish strong safeguards to distinguish between individual wage income and “pass-through” business income so Main Street tax relief goes to the local job creators it was designed to help most. > Allow businesses to immediately write off the full cost of new equipment to improve operations and enhance the skills of their workers – unleashing the growth of jobs, productivity, and paychecks. Perhaps you can share some of those statements about how the plan lowers taxes for the rich, but also for the middle class. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/542 "2017-11-19T00:22:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Who are, in your mind, the “overpaid good-for-nothings that are often a big drag on society”? Gates and Bezos? Elon Musk? Charles and David Koch? [Koch Industries employs 100,000 people](https://www.forbes.com/companies/koch-industries/). Big f-ing deal! The Koch’s are a blight and a cancer on our society. And, the fact that they run the company doesn’t mean that they employ those people. Those people are employed by the people who buy stuff. The owners and CEOs are often just overpriced caretakers who have the misconception that they are actually God’s gift to the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/543 "2017-11-19T00:24:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you can share some of those statements about how the plan lowers taxes for the rich, but also for the middle class. “Main Street job creators” is Republican code language for “the filthy rich”. But, yeah, your point is well-taken. They use this code language to hide the fact that they are throwing handouts at the undeserving rich. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/544 "2017-11-19T00:26:25Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > “Main Street job creators” is Republican code language for “the filthy rich”. But, yeah, your point is well-taken. They use this code language to hide the fact that they are throwing handouts at the undeserving rich. I read “main street job creators” as “small business owners”, not “the filthy rich”. But my decoder rings were never very good. Seriously, though, if someone were to put forward the idea that “sure, the GOP talks about tax cuts for the rich-- they mention ‘main street job creators’”, I’d call a big, whopping BULLSHIT on that. No code words, no dog whistles I want to see where the GOP talks about this plan giving tax cuts to the rich, even if they follow that with “but the middle class gets a tax cut, too!!”. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/545 "2017-11-19T00:28:04Z")
In the case of the Koch brothers, I should also elaborate that they are basically just wealthy thieves who are buying Congressmen to support their thievery and keeping the economy dependent on their destructive products rather than more sustainable products. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/546 "2017-11-19T00:31:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s [Paul Ryan’s press release regarding the tax plan](https://paulryan.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=398771). I see references to the middle class and the lower class (many of whom don’t pay any income tax anyway), but I don’t see any mention of “the rich” in it. > > Perhaps you can share some of those statements about how the plan lowers taxes for the rich, but also for the middle class. Sure. Just the other day, VP Pence said this: > [@](#): > > … [To keep this momentum going, the President and I believe, there’s one thing more we must do before the end of this year. And with President Trump’s leadership, and strong support in the Congress of the United States, **we’re going to cut taxes across the board for working families and businesses large and small**](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/11/15/remarks-followed-qa-vice-president-wall-street-journals-ceo-council)… > [@](#): > > … [We’re going to cut the hand-outs and the carve-outs. We’re going to create a fairer code with **lower taxes for everyone**](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/11/16/remarks-vice-president-tax-foundation-annual-dinner) … And my senator, Orrin Hatch, said this: > [@](#): > > [I really resent anybody who says I’m just doing this for the rich. Give me a break.](http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/360855-gop-chairman-explodes-in-anger-after-dem-says-tax-bill-benefits-rich) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/547 "2017-11-19T00:37:07Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Big f-ing deal! The Koch’s are a blight and a cancer on our society. And, the fact that they run the company doesn’t mean that they employ those people. Those people are employed by the people who buy stuff. The owners and CEOs are often just overpriced caretakers who have the misconception that they are actually God’s gift to the Universe. > [@jshore](#): > > In the case of the Koch brothers, I should also elaborate that they are basically just wealthy thieves who are buying Congressmen to support their thievery and keeping the economy dependent on their destructive products rather than more sustainable products. You didn’t really answer my question, but given the explosion of vitriol, I’ll assume that I hit the nail on the head when I got to the Koch brothers. “… the fact that they run the company doesn’t mean that they employ those people …” is certainly an interesting spin on things. You don’t think Elon Musk ‘employs people’ at SpaceX? That’s a novel use of the word “employ”. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/548 "2017-11-19T00:40:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s [Paul Ryan’s press release regarding the tax plan](https://paulryan.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=398771). It’s also amazing how they can pack so much bullshit into such a small space. It’s fun to deconstruct it: > [@](#): > > Significantly increase the standard deduction to protect roughly double the amount of what you earn each year from taxes – from $6,350 to $12,000 for individuals and $12,700 to $24,000 for married couples; …While taking away the exemptions. So, in the end, depending on how many exemptions you could claim, it is probably basically a wash…except if you itemized, in which case you are screwed because now you will have to have more itemized deductions to get the same amount of deduction + exemption that you got before. > [@](#): > > Keep retirement savings options such as 401(k)s and Individual Retirement Accounts unchanged so Americans can continue to save for their future; > Continue the deduction for charitable contributions so people can continue to donate to their local church, charity, or community organization and preserve the home mortgage interest deduction for existing mortgages and maintains the home mortgage interest deduction for newly purchased homes up to $500,000 – providing tax relief to current and aspiring homeowners. And, it also does not kill the first-born in each family so that families can continue to enjoy all of their children. I love how what they are not doing takes such prominence here. (And, again, the deduction for charitable contributions and mortgage interest is actually deceptive because, by turning exemptions into a larger standard deduction, way fewer taxpayers will be able to benefit from these itemized deductions.) ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/549 "2017-11-19T00:44:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “… the fact that they run the company doesn’t mean that they employ those people …” is certainly an interesting spin on things. You don’t think Elon Musk ‘employs people’ at SpaceX? That’s a novel use of the word “employ”. It’s an interesting spin because it is so different from the usual brainwashing. In some sense they employ those people, but not in a sense that should excuse the ridiculous amount of money they pay themselves and not in a way that is going to lead to an explosion of economic growth if we shower them with tax breaks. I may be a little over-the-top in my rhetoric here, but it is really to counter and challenge the sort of silly brainwashing that I think has occurred in our society. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/550 "2017-11-19T00:50:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And my senator, Orrin Hatch, said this: Oh yes…The Orrin Hatch tantrum. If he’s your senator, you can have him…but please keep him to yourself rather than sharing him with the rest of the country. I think he is just too good for you Utahans to share with the rest of us unwashed masses. Well, sure if someone else mentions the rich, they’ll say, “They are not just for the rich…” or they will say some nice stuff about it being across the board. But, most of the emphasis is that they are cutting taxes on the middle class or on “the Main Street job creators”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/551 "2017-11-19T00:54:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Just the other day, VP Pence said this: > > And my senator, Orrin Hatch, said this: And McConnell admitted [he lied about the tax cuts.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/10/mitch-mcconnell-says-he-misspoke-about-republican-tax-plan.html) > [@](#): > > During a day of meetings about the Republican tax bill, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell spoke to the media, November 9, 2017. > > \*\*Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Friday acknowledged he “misspoke” when he said no middle-class Americans would see a tax hike under the Senate tax plan. > \*\* > A Times analysis estimated that about a quarter of middle-class families would see taxes rise in 2018. Other independent analyses have projected tax hikes for a pocket of the population under the Senate plan and a similar proposal working its way through the House. Orrin Hatch is the one responsible for the non-regulation of supplements. Guess what industry his son worked in? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/552 "2017-11-19T01:18:39Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > … In some sense they employ those people… Well, you got one thing right. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/553 "2017-11-19T01:19:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > … > Orrin Hatch is the one responsible for the non-regulation of supplements. Guess what industry his son worked in? Supplements? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/554 "2017-11-19T01:28:43Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Supplements? Haven’t had my daily dose of herbal extracts. Supplements. Though Hatch’s twisting and dodging is impressive. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/555 "2017-11-19T02:49:23Z")
Something that is often overlooked is that, when payroll taxes (including the employer portion) is included, workers earning $70k - $127k generally _ **pay tax at a higher rate than the rich do!** _ The effect is even greater when health insurance premiums are included, as needed to compare apples-with-apples to Europe. Warren Buffett pointed this out a few years ago — his secretary pays a higher tax rate than Buffett does — and GOP apologists pretended not to understand. But isn’t it fair to include payroll taxes? Payroll benefits are certainly included when GOP wants to depict costs of government. The bottom 75% of households (those making below about $75,000) earn about as much total as the top 1% (those making above $450,000), and pay almost as much in total tax. (Half of the money made by the top 1% is made by the top 0.1%: those earning $1.6 million plus. And remember that the earnings of the elite do not include unrealized gains and certain loopholes.) That’s right: low-wage earners, even with zero income tax, never pay less than 15% or so (payroll tax) or much more when health insurance, etc. is included. Contrariwise, the payroll tax and premiums for a rich man will be negligible in proportion; and much of his income will be taxed at 20% capital gains rate.) TL;DR: The tax rate already is nearly “flat” when payroll taxes are included. Real tax reform would be to increase the taxes paid by the top 1% by 5% (and by 10% for the top 0.1%) and use the proceeds to reduce the SocSec burden on employers and employees. _That_ would stimulate job growth! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/556 "2017-11-19T03:30:13Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Supplements? Are you going to respond to post #515? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/557 "2017-11-19T03:43:09Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Big f-ing deal! The Koch’s are a blight and a cancer on our society. And, the fact that they run the company doesn’t mean that they employ those people. Those people are employed by the people who buy stuff. The owners and CEOs are often just overpriced caretakers who have the misconception that they are actually God’s gift to the Universe. Not to mention that [9 million people a year die due to pollution.](https://www.popsci.com/nine-million-people-killed-pollution)Granted, the Kochs aren’t responsible for all of them, but they’re certainly responsible for buying elections nationwide to repeal legislation on pollution, which ensures the death rate stays high, and we’d probably be better off without 100,000 Koch jobs. Alive in unemployed beats dead any day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/558 "2017-11-19T05:15:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure. Just the other day, VP Pence said this: > > And my senator, Orrin Hatch, said this: Not seeing the word “rich” there. Maybe I missed it. Can you quote it? As I said, my decoder ring isn’t very good. I’d like to see where they talked about rich vs middle class. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/559 "2017-11-19T15:08:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > TL;DR: The tax rate already is nearly “flat” when payroll taxes are included. …[And, that’s not even mentioning state and local taxes, which are almost always regressive since they often tend to rely pretty heavily on sales tax](https://itep.org/whopays/). ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/560 "2017-11-23T15:44:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Subpart F defers US taxation until it is repatriated. The last time they gave taxpayers this sort of break under GW Bush, it raised billions in revenue as companies took advantage of what was essentially a tax holiday to repatriate a shit ton of dollars to the US and then proceeded to sit on the cash. Yes, but why would multi national companies want to bring back money to the states for taxation of any sort? Why not use it to invest in other opportunities around the world, especially where the opportunity is lucrative and the taxes lower? Why bring earnings back to the USA at all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=29)