# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/601 "2017-12-02T01:06:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Doesn’t the new bill get rid of the AMT? Or is it just one of the bills. Still, it looks like there’s a good chance it’ll be gone, no? Nope. Back in according to the current reporting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/602 "2017-12-02T01:14:42Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Enough that I get hit with the AMT and will continue to under the new bill. And I live in a high tax state with high property values and will lose those deductions. I made a mistake in making my money in salary and not inheritance. My bad. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Actually, I believe Senator Susan Collins worked out a deal for state and local property taxes. Maybe you should [send her](https://www.collins.senate.gov/contact) some flowers and a nice card. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/603 "2017-12-02T01:15:47Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Nope. Back in according to the current reporting. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Maybe it’s in the margins. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/604 "2017-12-02T01:45:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.” > > Sauce, goose, gander. Please quit repeating falsehoods. The ACA had been through months of committee hearings, and except for minor tweaks, by the time they voted, everybody in the country who wasn’t being fed lies about death panels and the like knew what was in it if they wanted to. However, a LOT of people absorbed the lies, and that’s what Nancy Pelosi was talking about: that the only way they were going to find out what was in the bill was if they passed it. Sauce for the goose, my ass. They could spend all December re-working this tax bill in committee, and it wouldn’t have spent as much time being gone over with a fine-tooth comb, in public, as the ACA ever did. Equating the two, because of some bullshit spin that one unfortunate phrase has been subjected to, is an act of total intellectual dishonesty. Which you, being an honest person, will cheerfully abandon now that you know the facts, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/605 "2017-12-02T01:49:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > P… everybody in the country who wasn’t being fed lies about death panels and the like knew what was in it if they wanted to. … Do you think there’s even an outside chance someone, somewhere, in this big wide country of ours was under the mistaken impression they were going to get to keep their doctor and their plan? Or are those people who were ‘being fed lies’ too? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/606 "2017-12-02T02:03:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you think there’s even an outside chance someone, somewhere, in this big wide country of ours was under the mistaken impression they were going to get to keep their doctor and their plan? Or are those people who were ‘being fed lies’ too? IIRC, that was true in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/607 "2017-12-02T02:09:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Please quit repeating falsehoods. How is it a falsehood? Did she say it or not? > [@](#): > > Which you, being an honest person, will cheerfully abandon now that you know the facts, I’m sure. You haven’t stated any facts. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/608 "2017-12-02T02:24:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How is it a falsehood? Did she say it or not? > > You haven’t stated any facts. Try again. How about this? If you believe a behavior is wrong, then don’t do it yourself even if your political opponent does it. If you do it anyway, then you don’t believe it to be wrong and you had no business attacking others for it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/609 "2017-12-02T02:57:31Z")
[At the request of one of the Board’s _Republicans_, I’m reposting this here.] It is important to keep in mind that the Trumpista GOP is trying to pass major legislation, including the gargantuan change to tax code, _ **without holding any hearings.** _ The ACA legislation was subject to 47 Congressional hearings; hundreds of witnesses were called; amendments by both D’s and R’s were debated; etc. (Despite all this, the GOP said the legislation was “jammed down their throats.”) Contrast that with the GOP’s plan for massive transfer of wealth to the rich. How many hearings are scheduled on that before the vote? 47? No, of course not. 10? 5? Even 1? No. _ **The GOP will allow Zero hearings on this gargantuan rip-off.** _ What do the Board’s R’s think of this? Are they proud of their boys for attempting to jam such a massive change down the throats of American people? Mnuchin has said on multiple occasions that he has “hundreds of Treasury officials working around the clock” to study the tax proposal in order to refute the claims of CBO, etc. Funny thing though: The career Treasury officials who would be in charge of this “around the clock” study, if it existed, have told journalists _ **there is no such study.** _ In fact, all the energy GOP Congresscritters should be spending on legislation or helping America is spent on ass-licking flattery of their Dear Leader — a leader so incompetent that even his own hand-picked Secretary of State calls him a “f\*cking moron.” If a writer for _House of Cards_ tried to depict behavior like we see now, the script would have been rejected as too far-fetched. I look forward to the day when the word “Republican” can be used by itself as shorthand for this sickness. If an ugly communist government gains a foothold somewhere they won’t call themselves “Soviet-style” — that word is a pejorative. If a Party patterned after the American GOP gains a foothold in Eastern Europe it won’t call itself a “Nazi” Party — that word has become a pejorative. I look forward to the day when Mods will debate whether “Republican” can be used here at SDMB outside the Pit. _ **Meanwhile, I will use the word as shorthand for this sickness.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/610 "2017-12-02T03:06:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > How is it a falsehood? Did she say it or not? It’s false, because by taking the quote out of context, its meaning has been radically altered. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/611 "2017-12-02T03:11:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Nope. Back in according to the current reporting. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk OK, after watching the news tonight, it is. But only in the Senate Bill and there was some mention about raising the limit where it kicks in. This is the most I could find, but doesn’t shed much light: > [@](#): > > A revised version of the Senate tax bill includes a new individual alternative minimum tax to help pay for proposed changes, according to Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota. > > The so-called AMT would have graduated increases, Rounds said. The original version of the tax plan called for repealing the AMT, which was originally designed to make sure wealthy households couldn’t use deductions or credits to pay little or no federal income tax. Over time, inflation has meant that larger numbers of people have paid the tax. “Graduated increases” could mean lots of different things. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/612 "2017-12-02T04:48:40Z")
Here’s the [Washington Posts’s fact check article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/06/22/history-lesson-how-the-democrats-pushed-obamacare-through-the-senate/?utm_term=.fe36819b01ad) on the process of passage of the ACA vs the process of non-passage of the GOP’s alternative “plan” earlier this year. It not so sanguine about the process of the former as some here would have us believe. But read it yourself and draw your own conclusions. Personally, I’m not all that concerned about the lack of debate about the Senate Bill. It’s not the final bill, and they could debate it for 40 days and 40 nights and no Democrat is going to vote for it no matter what. Once it gets passed, it becomes part of the public record and every Democrat who wants to can speak about it on the talk shows is going to do so. Actual debates in Congress, while they are part of the public record, are not any more interesting or informative than moderated interviews with Congresscritters. I’m not even that concerned about the phase out of the tax cuts for the less fortunate. I am concerned, but not overly so. I’m pretty confident that Congress will find someway to keep them alive when push comes to shove 10 year hence (or whenever the phase-out begins). But… Everything I’ve read about this bill makes me thinks it’s a ginormous mistake. I huge experiment that the GOP is foisting on us just so they can say they “did something”. A big tax cut to the wealthy, and a big addition to the deficit. The addition we hear ($1T) over ten years isn’t over in ten years, either. It starts again, and adds another $1T (or maybe more) ongoing util this abomination of a bill is fixed, somehow. And that will be a nightmare to do unless we see a complete flipping of Congress and the WH. If I believed in God, I’d pray for that to happen. As it is, I just keep telling my friends and acquaintances not to be hoodwinked by this shitbucket of a “tax cut bill”. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/613 "2017-12-02T06:41:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … I’m not even that concerned about the phase out of the tax cuts for the less fortunate. I am concerned, but not overly so. I’m pretty confident that Congress will find someway to keep them alive when push comes to shove 10 year hence (or whenever the phase-out begins). > > But… Everything I’ve read about this bill makes me thinks it’s a ginormous mistake. I huge experiment that the GOP is foisting on us just so they can say they “did something”. A big tax cut to the wealthy, and a big addition to the deficit. The addition we hear ($1T) over ten years isn’t over in ten years, either. It starts again, and adds another $1T (or maybe more) ongoing util this abomination of a bill is fixed, somehow. And that will be a nightmare to do unless we see a complete flipping of Congress and the WH. If I believed in God, I’d pray for that to happen. As it is, I just keep telling my friends and acquaintances not to be hoodwinked by this shitbucket of a “tax cut bill”. Am I mistaken, or does the bill also have a provision that _ **If** _ deficits increase beyond some threshold, _ **Then** _ cuts to “entitlements” like SocSec will be triggered automatically. ? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/614 "2017-12-02T07:14:34Z")
It passed 51-49. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/615 "2017-12-02T07:17:46Z")
So many things wrong with this bill: 1. It’s not bipartisan. That’s not always a problem with bills, but tax reform has to be bipartisan. True tax reform is hard and requires tough choices. No touch choices were made in this bill. 2. Then again, it’s not tax reform. It’s just a tax cut, and a temporary one at that. 3. The Republicans did what they accused Democrats of doing not too long ago. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/616 "2017-12-02T07:39:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Am I mistaken, or does the bill also have a provision that _ **If** _ deficits increase beyond some threshold, > _ **Then** _ cuts to “entitlements” like SocSec will be triggered automatically. > ? I believe you are mistaken. There was some talk about having a provision that if the hoped-for booming economy doesn’t produce enough revenue to offset at least a portion of the tax cuts, that they might insert a provision to roll back some of the income tax cuts. This was Senator Corker’s demand. Since he apparently voted no, I assume that didn’t make it into the bill. I don’t think there was ever talk about cutting entitlements. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/617 "2017-12-02T07:50:38Z")
So…tax layman question, does the big jump in standard deduction (it is now $12,000 instead of $6,350) mean your taxable income therefore simply decreases by $5,650? Sounds like it would shave around $900 off of my income taxes if so. And if Trump signed this right now, would it already kick in by the time it’s time to file taxes in April 2018? Or would it not apply to 2017 income? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/618 "2017-12-02T07:51:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So…tax layman question, does the big jump in standard deduction (it is now $12,000 instead of $6,350) mean your taxable income therefore simply decreases by $5,650? Sounds like it would shave around $900 off of my income taxes if so. > > And if Trump signed this right now, would it already kick in by the time it’s time to file taxes in April 2018? Or would it not apply to 2017 income? Not sure about the first, but it will not apply to 2017 taxes. And Congress still has to have a conference committee and both houses have to pass the agreed-upon final version of the bill. There’s nothing yet for Trump to sign. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/619 "2017-12-02T08:04:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So…tax layman question, does the big jump in standard deduction (it is now $12,000 instead of $6,350) mean your taxable income therefore simply decreases by $5,650? Sounds like it would shave around $900 off of my income taxes if so. > > And if Trump signed this right now, would it already kick in by the time it’s time to file taxes in April 2018? Or would it not apply to 2017 income? You’ve got it right on the standard deduction. While it is a bad bill, IMO, pretty much the only families who will see a tax increase are those families that avoid taxes through all kinds of itemized deductions. They’ll pay more because they currently underpay or don’t pay at all. I’ve never been a fan of special tax deductions for homeowners or students. Just have a higher standard deduction, it’s much fairer. The bill at least gets that right. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/620 "2017-12-02T08:06:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not sure about the first, but it will not apply to 2017 taxes. And Congress still has to have a conference committee and both houses have to pass the agreed-upon final version of the bill. There’s nothing yet for Trump to sign. Ah OK, thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=32)