# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/641 "2017-12-02T14:36:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.” > > Sauce, goose, gander. Not only are you misconstruing the remarks – [cite](https://www.snopes.com/pelosi-healthcare-pass-the-bill-to-see-what-is-in-it/) – but let’s step back a moment. The Senate passed the ACA on December 24, 2009. Pelosi made her remark on March 9, 2010. The House passed the Senate-passed bill on March 21, 2010. As I understand it, the 500 page tax bill was passed out something like five hours before it was voted on. The 906 page ACA bill was availabvle to read for approximately 87 days, or 2000 hours, before the House voted on it. Do these things seem the same to you? Honest question. Sometimes I’m not sure how conservatives see the world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/642 "2017-12-02T14:38:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Alternatively, the House could pass the Senate bill without any changes. What are the odds of that happening? I’ll admit that I’m not privy to all the details involved, but my (admittedly superficial) understanding is that’s not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/643 "2017-12-02T14:40:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Not only are you misconstruing the remarks – [cite](https://www.snopes.com/pelosi-healthcare-pass-the-bill-to-see-what-is-in-it/) – but let’s step back a moment. > > The Senate passed the ACA on December 24, 2009. Pelosi made her remark on March 9, 2010. The House passed the Senate-passed bill on March 21, 2010. > > As I understand it, the 500 page tax bill was passed out something like five hours before it was voted on. The 906 page ACA bill was availabvle to read for approximately 87 days, or 2000 hours, before the House voted on it. > > Do these things seem the same to you? Honest question. Sometimes I’m not sure how conservatives see the world. I’m a bit confused about all the predictions of doom coming from liberals on social media about what amounts to a fairly ordinary tax cut. The bill is terrible, but it’s not disastrous. Just bad policy that will have some bad results while improving some other things. The apocalyptic rhetoric is really stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/644 "2017-12-02T14:47:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Trump treats bankruptcy as a strategy. Of all the things Trump can do, that’s the most nighmarish scenario. Sell, bankruptcy had never done Thump any harm. What’s good for Thump is good for the… yeah… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/645 "2017-12-02T14:48:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m a bit confused about all the predictions of doom coming from liberals on social media about what amounts to a fairly ordinary tax cut. The bill is terrible, but it’s not disastrous. Just bad policy that will have some bad results while improving some other things. The apocalyptic rhetoric is really stupid. Were you “confused” when social media predicted huge job losses doe to the ACA? Social media is stew of hyperbole-- you’re just finding that out now? But even you admit that the bill is “terrible” and “bad policy”, just not “disastrous”. Is that supposed to be comforting? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/646 "2017-12-02T14:49:03Z")
[Rubio let it slip:](https://www.fa-mag.com/news/rubio--offset-tax-cuts-by-reducing-social-security--medicare-benefits-35928.html) > [@](#): > > “Many argue that you can’t cut taxes because it will drive up the deficit. But we have to do two things. We have to generate economic growth which generates revenue, while reducing spending. That will mean instituting structural changes to Social Security and Medicare for the future,” the senator said. > … > > “We don’t need to reduce benefits on current retirees or even near-term retirees, but we can make changes for future generations such as mine, and do so in a way that people can prepare for, so the changes will barely be felt,” Rubio said. And this last part hardly needs pointing out, but here it is: > [@](#): > > Pundits are already envisioning Democrats’ ad campaigns in the coming years characterizing Republicans as the party that gutted health care and cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations. That’s why House Democrats were waving goodbye to the Republicans when they voted for their own version. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/647 "2017-12-02T14:58:20Z")
[I’d vote for this](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/12/02/us/03dc-taxchaos-2/03dc-taxchaos-2-jumbo.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/648 "2017-12-02T15:05:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re totally incorrect. The “raiding” takes the form of using surpluses in the Trust Fund and investing them in special government bonds. Under the 14th Amendment, those bonds are constitutionally required to be repaid. Unfortunately, constitutions have to be enforced. Court rulings have to be respected and complied with. There’s nothing that suggests to me that Trump and the Republicans care about the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/649 "2017-12-02T16:15:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Unfortunately, constitutions have to be enforced. Court rulings have to be respected and complied with. There’s nothing that suggests to me that Trump and the Republicans care about the rule of law. I’m no fan of Trump, but didn’t he comply with the various court orders regarding his “travel ban”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/650 "2017-12-02T16:16:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m a bit confused about all the predictions of doom coming from liberals on social media about what amounts to a fairly ordinary tax cut. The bill is terrible, but it’s not disastrous. Just bad policy that will have some bad results while improving some other things. The apocalyptic rhetoric is really stupid. I’m not sure what this has to do with my question of whether **D’Anconia** sees any difference between 5 hours and 87 days… but I guess I haven’t paid any attention to any “predictions of doom” or “apocalyptic rhetoric.” What I have seen a lot of is predictions that the deficit is going to go up bigly, debunking of the predictions of corporate reinvestment, and complaints that the whole basis of the policy in the bill is unfair. I agree with all of those points. If someone said that we are going to enter a depression because of this bill, or the Constitution is going to fall apart, I disagree with those predictions of doom. But maybe you’re just using hyperbole to criticize hyperbole? If so, that’s mighty ironic. > [@asahi](#): > > Unfortunately, constitutions have to be enforced. Court rulings have to be respected and complied with. There’s nothing that suggests to me that Trump and the Republicans care about the rule of law. With that solid reasoning, why don’t you just come out and say that you think Trump, Ryan, and McConnell are plotting to murder everyone who votes Democratic in the next election? After all, they don’t care about the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/651 "2017-12-02T17:09:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Senate passed the ACA on December 24, 2009. Pelosi made her remark on March 9, 2010. The House passed the Senate-passed bill on March 21, 2010. > > As I understand it, the 500 page tax bill was passed out something like five hours before it was voted on. The 906 page ACA bill was availabvle to read for approximately 87 days, or 2000 hours, before the House voted on it. > > Do these things seem the same to you? Honest question. Is there a Constitutional requirement for X number of hours or days? No, there isn’t. Also, when the ACA passed with ONLY Democrat votes, that was apparently A-OK. But the Republicans passing a tax bill is partisan and not following “regular order.” (Generic) you can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/652 "2017-12-02T17:22:17Z")
But apparently (specific) you can. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/653 "2017-12-02T17:25:11Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > But apparently (specific) you can. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Collect47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Collect47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Collect47)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/654 "2017-12-02T17:32:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Is there a Constitutional requirement for X number of hours or days? No, there isn’t. > > Also, when the ACA passed with ONLY Democrat votes, that was apparently A-OK. But the Republicans passing a tax bill is partisan and not following “regular order.” (Generic) you can’t have it both ways. ACA for 87 days? Nope. The \*Christmas Eve bill \*was not “available for 87 days”. The famous quote that people could read it after it was passed is well-known. ("We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”.) And the Tax Bill has had a number of committee meetings which were _boycotted_ by Democrats entirely. The main points of the new tax bill have, in fact, been widely disseminated and discussion for more than three months, and “in regular order.” In fact, given the complexity of tax bills in the past, this one has had more discussion than many. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/655 "2017-12-02T17:38:07Z")
> [@Collect47](#): > > ACA for 87 days? Nope. The \*Christmas Eve bill \*was not “available for 87 days”. The famous quote that people could read it after it was passed is well-known. ("We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”.) And the Tax Bill has had a number of committee meetings which were _boycotted_ by Democrats entirely. The main points of the new tax bill have, in fact, been widely disseminated and discussion for more than three months, and “in regular order.” > > In fact, given the complexity of tax bills in the past, this one has had more discussion than many. And a ringing [25% approval](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/360494-poll-one-quarter-of-americans-approve-of-gop-tax-plan) endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/656 "2017-12-02T17:43:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And a ringing [25% approval](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/360494-poll-one-quarter-of-americans-approve-of-gop-tax-plan) endorsement. I’ll bet it would be lower if the hastily scribbled amendments could be read. I’m hoping that when that mess is retyped, a few disastrous typos sink the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/657 "2017-12-02T17:45:22Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’ll bet it would be lower if the hastily scribbled amendments could be read. > > I’m hoping that when that mess is retyped, a few disastrous typos sink the whole thing. From your finger tips, **r-c**. From your finger tips… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/658 "2017-12-02T18:18:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And a ringing [25% approval](http://thehill.com/policy/finance/360494-poll-one-quarter-of-americans-approve-of-gop-tax-plan) endorsement. I think what’s worse is that: > [@](#): > > Republicans are largely in favor of the plan, with 60 percent approving of it and just 15 percent disapproving. Another 26 percent of Republicans were undecided. The House races tend to be pretty safe, but Senate races are state-wide, and it might not take that many “undecided” + “disapproving” to swing an election or two. Americans are mostly not liking this bill and even Republicans are lukewarm. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/659 "2017-12-02T18:24:19Z")
Is this bill eventually going to have a short, recognizable moniker, like how the ACA was ‘Obamacare?’ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/660 "2017-12-02T18:43:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is this bill eventually going to have a short, recognizable moniker, like how the ACA was ‘Obamacare?’ [The “Cut Cut Cut!”.](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/01/politics/tax-plan-trump-cut-cut-cut-bill/index.html) It’s positively Trumpian because it’s so inane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=34)