# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/881 "2017-12-17T02:34:09Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > [The specific text of the act (see page 87)](http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171218/CRPT-115HRPT-466.pdf) says: > [@](#): > > "For purposes of subparagraph (B), an amount paid in a taxable year beginning before January 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income tax imposed for a taxable year beginning after December 31, 2017, shall be treated as paid on the last day of the taxable year for which such tax is so imposed.’’. Since that calls out “State or local income taxes” wouldn’t that mean property taxes are ok? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/882 "2017-12-17T02:37:20Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > For hopefully the last time,\*\* how is paying down debt “hoarding”?\*\* > > Answer: It’s not, by any stretch of the (lefty) imagination. Who gives a fuck? The point is that the claimed aim of the tax breaks was to benefit the middle class with jobs and wage hikes was a total lie from the start. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/883 "2017-12-17T02:45:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Who gives a fuck? The point is that the claimed aim of the tax breaks was to benefit the middle class with jobs and wage hikes was a total lie from the start. One of your fellow travelers posted a link to an editorial that claimed that paying down debt was hoarding. Not a single person in this thread is willing to disavow said article. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/884 "2017-12-17T02:54:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > One of your fellow travelers posted a link to an editorial that claimed that paying down debt was hoarding. > > Not a single person in this thread is willing to disavow said article. Why is that? Why is it not hoarding? What’s your definition of hoarding? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/885 "2017-12-17T03:03:49Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > One of your fellow travelers posted a link to an editorial that claimed that paying down debt was hoarding. > > Not a single person in this thread is willing to disavow said article. Why is that? Since you didn’t read the article: > [@](#): > > ``` > In a conference call with analysts last week, Ron Nersesian, CEO of Keysight Technologies in Santa Rosa, California, which makes equipment for electronic measurements,** acknowledged that his company would use its windfall to reduce debt “or give back cash to our investors in the form of share buybacks or in dividends.” > > ``` > > \*\* > This has been the pattern. Republicans like Paul Ryan claim that a windfall for corporations will benefit workers, and those same CEOs say that they will instead enrich themselves and their shareholders. > > Nobody other than the rich benefits when the rich are allowed to accumulate more wealth because they hoard that wealth. Maybe they put it in a pool and swim in it or maybe they use it to purchase a copy of the Declaration of Independence through a private sale with Nicolas Cage, but they do not spend it in a way that circulates through the economy so that others might also get something out of it. All that money does not enter the economy which is the claimed reason for the tax bill. You stimulate the economy by putting money into the hands of as many consumers as you can. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/886 "2017-12-17T03:05:20Z")
Yay! I’m a fellow traveler! **D’anconia** , the hoarding talked about in the article indicates that money from tax cuts for the wealthy and for corporations remain strictly in the hands of corporations and the wealthy. They do not spend it on infrastructure, wage increases, and increased hiring, at least in this current economic climate. There’s simply no need for the first and last, and no incentive other than niceness for increasing wages. That had been the public rationale for these tax cuts, and its bloody nonsense. Kind of like your microscopic focus on the concept of hoarding, as a desperate diversionary method. It’s time for me to go see _The Last Jedi_, so carry on, all. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/887 "2017-12-17T03:05:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why is it not hoarding? What’s your definition of hoarding? Keeping unnecessary stuff for yourself. Paying back debt doesn’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/888 "2017-12-17T03:10:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Keeping unnecessary stuff for yourself. Paying back debt doesn’t qualify. But what is unnecessary? Like, keeping Internet access for your own use would qualify as hoarding? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/889 "2017-12-17T03:12:08Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > One of your fellow travelers posted a link to an editorial that claimed that paying down debt was hoarding. > > Not a single person in this thread is willing to disavow said article. Why is that? Why do any of us have to disavow something we didn’t write nor post? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/890 "2017-12-17T03:15:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But what is unnecessary? Like, keeping Internet access for your own use would qualify as hoarding? Internet access is not necessary. Is it useful? Yes. Is it entertaining? Sometimes. But not necessary. BTW, paying down debt is not hoarding. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/891 "2017-12-17T03:17:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why do any of us have to disavow something we didn’t write nor post? :dubious: Why did he or she link to it then? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/892 "2017-12-17T03:24:30Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Internet access is not necessary. So is reducing debt a necessity for a corporation? How about for a government? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/893 "2017-12-17T03:29:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So is reducing debt a necessity for a corporation? Reducing debt is usually a good idea, but it depends on the situation. Sometimes debt is cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/894 "2017-12-17T03:39:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why is it not hoarding? What’s your definition of hoarding? I owe you money. I pay you back. In what universe is that hoarding? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/895 "2017-12-17T03:41:03Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I owe you money. I pay you back. In what universe is that hoarding? Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/896 "2017-12-17T04:19:02Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Reducing debt is usually a good idea, but it depends on the situation. Sometimes debt is cheaper. Is adding $1.5 trillion to the government debt cheaper than… something? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/897 "2017-12-17T05:29:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Great tweet by Ann Coulter](https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/941721976430723072) about the tax bill: > With all due respect, Ann, _fuck your feelings_. 😃 If ever anyone deserved that sentiment, it’s her… I had to Google to make sure “fuck your feelings” was not a direct quote from Ann Coulter. And if so, how many times she said it. Didn’t find that exact wording though for Coulter (“screw your feelings” did come up though.) …on the other hand, apparently Milo Yiannoupoulous seems to be known for the phrase. Birds of a feather I guess. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/898 "2017-12-17T05:30:26Z")
In the MPSIMS thread, Bone quoted the following section from the bill regarding limitations on deductibility of other taxes. I have a question for tax attorney types. Do lines 6-7 and lines 15-20 mean, for example, if I own a vacation home or a golf course in Scotland, I can fully deduct real estate taxes on that property (instead of limiting the deduction to $10,000)? > [@](#): > > SEC. 11042. LIMITATION ON DEDUCTION FOR STATE AND > 22 LOCAL, ETC. TAXES. > 23 (a) IN GENERAL.—Subsection (b) of section 164 is > 24 amended by adding at the end the following new para > 25 graph: > > 1 ‘‘(6) LIMITATION ON INDIVIDUAL DEDUCTIONS > 2 FOR TAXABLE YEARS 2018 THROUGH 2025.—In the > 3 case of an individual and a taxable year beginning > 4 after December 31, 2017, and before January 1, > 5 2026— > 6 ‘‘(A) foreign real property taxes shall not > 7 be taken into account under subsection (a)(1), > 8 and > 9 ‘‘(B) the aggregate amount of taxes taken > 10 into account under paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) > 11 of subsection (a) and paragraph (5) of this sub > 12 section for any taxable year shall not exceed > 13 $10,000 ($5,000 in the case of a married indi > 14 vidual filing a separate return). > 15 The preceding sentence shall not apply to any for > 16 eign taxes described in subsection (a)(3) or to any > 17 taxes described in paragraph (1) and (2) of sub > 18 section (a) which are paid or accrued in carrying on > 19 a trade or business or an activity described in sec > 20 tion 212. For purposes of subparagraph (B), an > 21 amount paid in a taxable year beginning before Jan > 22 uary 1, 2018, with respect to a State or local income > 23 tax imposed for a taxable year beginning after De > 24 cember 31, 2017, shall be treated as paid on the last > > 1 day of the taxable year for which such tax is so im > 2 posed.’’. > 3 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made by > 4 this section shall apply to taxable years beginning after > 5 December 31, 2016. Here are links to the tax code being changed: > **[26 U.S. Code § 164 - Taxes](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/164)** > **[26 U.S. Code § 212 - Expenses for production of income](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/212)** ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/899 "2017-12-17T05:36:52Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > I’m not sure I would say “most” own stock, it is over 50% but just barely. > > This Gallup [survey](http://news.gallup.com/poll/211052/stock-ownership-down-among-older-higher-income.aspx) pegs it as about 54% - tilted heavily towards older and higher earners. > > I own stocks and can easily see that I will gain much more from that fact than the average person will gain from tax cuts. I will gain from all the money that is supposed to be going to increased wages and hiring. > > What a scam. Well, how else are we going to maintain the worst income inequality [since the fall of the Roman Empire?](http://www.businessinsider.com/even-the-roman-empire-wasnt-as-unequal-as-america-today-2011-12) C’mon, we have a reputation to maintain here. ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/900 "2017-12-17T05:51:26Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I owe you money. I pay you back. In what universe is that hoarding? In the universe where that money was made available to you by keeping it out of the treasury, where it could have helped [9 million kids in working families with wages too low to afford health insurance. Some of whom will die.](http://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/363520-failure-to-reauthorize-chip-is-a-health-care-disaster-for-american)And also, you’re the employer who refuses to raise wages so those kids’ parents can afford health insurance. Or offer it as a benefit to them, for working for you. Even though you suddenly have way more money than you did the year before. You know… this universe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=46)