# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/961 "2017-12-19T16:39:04Z")
The American Enterprise Institute is associated with the right-wing kleptocrats. When theft is so egregious that the AEI calls it “outrageous, revolting, unfair … corrupted” we should wake up and listen. > [@Cary Coglianese](#): > > Reacting to the recent Senate tax vote, the **American Enterprise Institute** ’s preeminent congressional scholar, Norm Ornstein, declared, “There has never been a more outrageous, revolting, unfair process to pass a corrupted bill in the history of Congress.” Democratic deliberation this is not. > > The tax bill also fails under a second value: “democracy as representation.” The idea is that policy decisions should reflect public preferences. Yet, polls indicate that no more than about 30 percent of the public approves of the Republicans’ plan — making it the least popular tax cut package in decades. According to Gallup, **only 2 percent of Americans believe taxes are the most important problem** facing the country. > > Decision-making over the tax plan also fares poorly in terms of a third democratic value: “democracy as virtue.” This value speaks to how public officials and citizens conduct themselves in the public sphere. > > English political philosopher John Stuart Mill emphasized that when people are given a say in government decisions, their engagement will lead them to rise above their own self-interest and think about the overall welfare of their fellow citizens. > > In the recent tax debate, although some plan supporters may genuinely believe that cutting taxes will help the economy, the best evidence assembled by the Tax Policy Center, the Joint Committee on Taxation and Congressional Budget Office undercuts any such purportedly public-spirited beliefs. > > The plan’s regressive skew — including cuts in tax rates for corporations and the wealthiest individuals — only bolsters the impression that **self-interest is driving the process more than considerations of the general good**. > > Strikingly, although many corporate leaders spoke out earlier this year against President Donald Trump’s travel ban, immigration changes and comments about Charlottesville, few such voices have raised concern about the tax plan, even though it will add significantly to the nation’s debt. [The same webpage where I got this quote](http://thehill.com/homenews/house/365531-house-rolls-the-dice-in-spending-bill-fight) has upgraded what I was calling the Trillion-dollar Theft — **the larceny is now assessed as _Two_ Trillion Dollars.** ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/962 "2017-12-19T17:31:13Z")
With economic and regulatory changes being driven by well-moneyed minorities, I look forward to the motto on American currency changing to "_E Some-of-us Unum"_. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/963 "2017-12-19T18:07:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What matters to the GOP Congresscritters is how it polls with people who vote in Republican primaries during midterm elections. The [most recent numbers](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-poll/nearly-half-of-americans-oppose-republican-tax-bill-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN1DT3BX) I can find show that 59% of Republicans support it. If they can’t even get 60% of their base to support a tax cut package, something is seriously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/964 "2017-12-19T18:12:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It did occur to me how the GOP just seems to be screwing up left and right on their bread-and-butter issues. Cutting taxes on the rich and running up the deficit is one of the GOP’s bread-and-butter issues. And quite possibly the only one. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/965 "2017-12-19T18:20:35Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Cutting taxes on the rich and running up the deficit is one of the GOP’s bread-and-butter issues. And quite possibly the only one. Let’s not forget hyping the threat of foreigners and mistrust of non-Christians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/966 "2017-12-19T18:40:33Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Cutting taxes on the rich and running up the deficit is one of the GOP’s bread-and-butter issues. And quite possibly the only one. I would quibble about that. Trump is raising taxes on quite a few rich folks, but cutting taxes for the very, very rich. I don’t know that there is an easily defined cut-off level of income, and the total amount of $$ being cut for the very rich is probably more than what is being raised for the merely rich, but that is part of how this whole thing gets balanced (even with the addition to the deficit). This is not unlike the effect of Obamacare in one aspect, where it was generally known in advance that higher income, self-employed folks would see their insurance rates go up in order to offset some of the other rates going down (or not going up as fast). I happened to be in both classes. Now, in the case of Obamacare, I was less upset since at least I was paying more so that people less fortunate would get some benefit. But in the case of the GOP tax plan, I’m paying more so that people who are super wealthy can pay less. #that’sfuckedup!! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/967 "2017-12-19T19:06:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … I happened to be in both classes. Now, in the case of Obamacare, I was less upset since at least I was paying more so that people less fortunate would get some benefit. But in the case of the GOP tax plan, I’m paying more so that people who are super wealthy can pay less. #that’sfuckedup!! To quibble with your quibble, you have seemed aware in past posts on this subject that “people less fortunate would get some benefit” too in the tax cut bill. Has your view on that changed recently, did I misunderstand it, or is this just a post focusing on the benefits that go to the wealthy and ignoring the ones that would accrue to the poor and middle class? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/968 "2017-12-19T19:14:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > To quibble with your quibble, you have seemed aware in past posts on this subject that “people less fortunate would get some benefit” too in the tax cut bill. Has your view on that changed recently, did I misunderstand it, or is this just a post focusing on the benefits that go to the wealthy and ignoring the ones that would accrue to the poor and middle class? My taxes don’t need to be raised to pay for the tax cuts given to the poor and the middle class. That can all be handled by the $1.5T increase to the debt. But not the tax cuts to the corporations and the wealthy. Those make up the bulk of the tax cuts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/969 "2017-12-19T19:21:44Z")
In the House bill, about 41% of the tax cut went to folks making \> $200k. In the Senate bill, that was almost 50%. The compromise bill might be somewhere in between, but that’s a huge percentage going to a small number of people. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/970 "2017-12-19T19:35:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The American Enterprise Institute is associated with the right-wing kleptocrats. When theft is so egregious that the AEI calls it “outrageous, revolting, unfair … corrupted” we should wake up and listen. Ornstein made a clean break from the direction the GOP’s been going in back in 2012 with _It’s Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism_, the book that he and Thomas Mann wrote together. I’m amazed that the AEI hasn’t kicked him out, but he is NOT representative of the AEI’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/971 "2017-12-19T19:43:28Z")
Corporate income taxes will be cut by $100 billion per year or thereabouts. Some of this will lead to increased employment (and inflationary pressure) but much will be returned to shareholders. How much stock does a typical millionaire own compared with a typical billionaire? With corporate profits booming, the stock market will continue to boom and bubble, at least in the short term. This will make it difficult for the Trillion Dollar Theft to be repealed if moderate Americans regain control — who wants to be the Grinch that stole Christmas? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/972 "2017-12-19T19:53:25Z")
House just passed it 227-203. Not sure if Senate vote is today or tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/973 "2017-12-19T20:04:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In the House bill, about 41% of the tax cut went to folks making \> $200k. In the Senate bill, that was almost 50%. The compromise bill might be somewhere in between, but that’s a huge percentage going to a small number of people. Just curious, where did you find this breakdown? What were the other categories? Was it just \>$200k vs \<$200k? Was there a category for businesses? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/974 "2017-12-19T20:05:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > House just passed it 227-203. Not sure if Senate vote is today or tomorrow. Drudge Report’s headline says “SENATE TONIGHT” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/975 "2017-12-19T20:13:49Z")
They will be prompt and obedient. McCain voted wrong, and Trump gave him cancer. Yeah, he can do that, its kinda the opposite of Jesus, he can’t cure anything but can transmit any known affliction. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/976 "2017-12-19T21:28:50Z")
For those interested, NYT has a tax calculator based on the conference committee bill that just passed the House: > **[Tax Bill Calculator: Will Your Taxes Go Up or Down? (Published 2017)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/upshot/tax-calculator.html)** > > This simple calculator describes a range of tax scenarios under the Republican tax plan. Find households like yours in five steps or fewer. > [@](#): > > Over all, **about three-quarters of Americans would get a tax cut in 2018** under the version of the tax bill that was recently released by a joint House-Senate conference committee. But as the accompanying chart shows, there’s a lot of variation, even for families that look similar on paper. How families earn their money, whether they make large charitable contributions and other factors can affect how they would fare under the bill. > > These results may look more generous than what you might have seen in other calculators. That’s because the final plan is indeed more generous to individuals in 2018 than previous House and Senate plans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/977 "2017-12-19T21:32:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In the House bill, about 41% of the tax cut went to folks making \> $200k. In the Senate bill, that was almost 50%. The compromise bill might be somewhere in between, but that’s a huge percentage going to a small number of people. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just curious, where did you find this breakdown? What were the other categories? Was it just \>$200k vs \<$200k? Was there a category for businesses? Sorry. I mean to [link to the source.](https://www.npr.org/2017/11/14/562884070/charts-heres-how-gop-s-tax-breaks-would-shift-money-to-rich-poor-americans) ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/978 "2017-12-19T21:41:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > For those interested, NYT has a tax calculator based on the conference committee bill that just passed the House: > > [Tax Bill Calculator: Will Your Taxes Go Up or Down? - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/upshot/tax-calculator.html) From that article: “The uncertainty increases over time. Most of the changes to the tax code (for individuals, not for corporations) expire after 2025, which means most families would see a tax increase after that.” Enjoy it while it lasts. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/979 "2017-12-19T21:51:01Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > From that article: > > “The uncertainty increases over time. Most of the changes to the tax code (for individuals, not for corporations) expire after 2025, which means most families would see a tax increase after that.” > > Enjoy it while it lasts. > [@](#): > > But Republicans say they won’t let those provisions expire, and it’s hard to know what will happen a decade from now. I’m not too worried about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/980 "2017-12-19T21:56:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not too worried about it. Agreed. I think they will find a way to keep tax breaks for middle class and below. They might raise taxes for “the rich” and possibly for corporations, but it’s politically very difficult to raise taxes on regular folks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=50)