# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1181 "2017-12-31T01:05:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Completely wrong. The duty of a corporation is to _maximize shareholder wealth_. [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits) (opinion piece) > [@](#): > > There is a common belief that corporate directors have a legal duty to maximize corporate profits and “shareholder value” — even if this means skirting ethical rules, damaging the environment or harming employees. But this belief is utterly false. \*\*To quote the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in the recent Hobby Lobby case: “Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not.” > \*\* > The Hobby Lobby case dealt with a closely held company with controlling shareholders, but the Court’s statement on corporate purpose was not limited to such companies. State codes (including that of Delaware, the preeminent state for corporate law) similarly allow corporations to be formed for "any lawful business or purpose,” and the corporate charters of big public firms typically also define company purpose in these broad terms. **And corporate case law describes directors as fiduciaries who owe duties not only to shareholders but also to the corporate entity itself, and instructs directors to use their powers in “the best interests of the company.”** > > Serving shareholders’ “best interests” is not the same thing as either maximizing profits, or maximizing shareholder value. “Shareholder value,” for one thing, is a vague objective: No single “shareholder value” can exist, because different shareholders have different values. Some are long-term investors planning to hold stock for years or decades; others are short-term speculators. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1182 "2017-12-31T01:05:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Completely wrong. The duty of a corporation is to _maximize shareholder wealth_. No, **running coach** is right. The corporation’s duty is to maximize shareholder wealth over some period of time, not just this very instant. Now, different corporations will have different timelines, but none is “just this very instant, all the time, goddam it!!!” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1183 "2017-12-31T01:11:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, **running coach** is right. The corporation’s duty is to maximize shareholder wealth over some period of time, not just this very instant. Now, different corporations will have different timelines, but none is “just this very instant, all the time, goddam it!!!” I didn’t use the term instant. And, rc quoted an opinion piece, not facts. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1184 "2017-12-31T01:17:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I didn’t use the term instant. > > And, rc quoted an opinion piece, not facts. Which included a quote from the Hobby Lobby case. Since you seem to have missed it: > [@](#): > > To quote the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in the recent Hobby Lobby case: “Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not.” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1185 "2017-12-31T01:25:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which included a quote from the Hobby Lobby case. > Since you seem to have missed it: That doesn’t mean they’re not required to pursue profits. (For a publically held company.) Hobby Lobby is privately held. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1186 "2017-12-31T01:30:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That doesn’t mean they’re not required to pursue profits. (For a publically held company.) Hobby Lobby is privately held. Since you ignored the quote: > [@](#): > > To quote the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in the recent Hobby Lobby case: “Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit\*\* at the expense of everything else\*\*, and many do not.” I never said they’re not required to pursue profit. However, for a healthy economy, there needs to be a balance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1187 "2017-12-31T01:33:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I didn’t use the term instant. > > And, rc quoted an opinion piece, not facts. You said he was “completely wrong” when he said the company might be best served by looking out in time rather than doing some simple thing that could raise profits in the very short term. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1188 "2017-12-31T01:33:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > However, for a healthy economy, there needs to be a balance. According to whom? You? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1189 "2017-12-31T01:49:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > According to whom? You? [This explains it better than I can.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/businesses-focus-on-maximizing-shareholder-value-has-numerous-costs/2013/09/05/bcdc664e-045f-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html?utm_term=.7013a2d6b660) You’ll have to use your imagination to see how it affects the entire US economy. > [@](#): > > Take the simple example of outsourcing production overseas. Certainly it makes sense for any one company to aggressively pursue such a strategy. But when every company does it, so many American workers wind up losing their jobs or having their pay cut that they can no longer buy even the cheaper goods produced overseas. The companies may also find that government no longer has sufficient tax revenue to educate workers or invest in the roads and ports and airports through which their goods are delivered to market. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1190 "2017-12-31T01:49:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > According to whom? You? Are you familiar with the consensus of every economist who has ever lived? Do you know an economist who has recommended that there be no equilibrium that recognizes the interests of all market participants? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1191 "2017-12-31T02:59:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [This explains it better than I can.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/businesses-focus-on-maximizing-shareholder-value-has-numerous-costs/2013/09/05/bcdc664e-045f-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html?utm_term=.7013a2d6b660) It would be helpful if you posted a link that wasn’t behind a paywall. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1192 "2017-12-31T03:14:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Of course not. > > As far as publically traded businesses go, have you ever heard of fiduciary duty? The post wasn’t about publicly traded businesses, which are only like 0.02% of all businesses in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1193 "2017-12-31T03:15:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It would be helpful if you posted a link that wasn’t behind a paywall. :rolleyes: Selected quotes that destroy your arguments: > [@](#): > > There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list. … Cornell University law professor Lynn Stout has been looking for years for a corporate charter that even mentions maximizing profits or share price. She hasn’t found one. > > Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders. The fiduciary duty, in fact, is owed simply to the corporation… ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1194 "2017-12-31T03:15:51Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It would be helpful if you posted a link that wasn’t behind a paywall. :rolleyes: It’s only paywalled for people who haven’t figured out how to internet. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1195 "2017-12-31T03:17:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It would be helpful if you posted a link that wasn’t behind a paywall. :rolleyes: Strange. I had no problem and I don’t pay a penny to look at WaPo. And you failed to read the part I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1196 "2017-12-31T03:27:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > ETA: Or what Adam Smith said that septimus so helpfully quoted. (I was looking for that exact quote, thank you ninja.) [Gutenberg.org](http://Gutenberg.org) is your friend. I’ve downloaded machine-readable versions of _Wealth of Nations_ and some other classics just so I can ninja Googlers. 🙂 > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > If I recall correctly, you own your own business. Do you strive for low profits? Oh my. If this is your level of economic sense, please ask further questions in the Pit where they can get such response as they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1197 "2017-12-31T05:19:04Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s only paywalled for people who haven’t figured out how to internet. Excuse me? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1198 "2017-12-31T05:38:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Selected quotes that destroy your arguments: Lynn Stout couldn’t destroy her way out of a paper bag. One of her “notable theories” is in regards to “The importance of human conscience to peace, prosperity, and the rule of law”. Sure, lady. Ivory tower nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1199 "2017-12-31T07:38:29Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s only paywalled for people who haven’t figured out how to internet. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Strange. I had no problem and I don’t pay a penny to look at WaPo. I also have trouble reading Washington Post articles. This, despite that I’ve obeyed their earlier instruction to disable my Ad Blocker. I trust neither of you is suggesting that anyone delete his or her WaPo cookies. :eek: I believe that in the U.S.A. many would consider it illegal for a common citizen to delete cookies presented by Job Creators™ to protect their intellectual property. But speaking of cookie deletion, is anyone else irked that Google’s Chrome changed its cookie-deletion procedure from ‘unnecessarily cumbersome’ to ‘even more egregiously tedious’? Did they do this to impede anti-Job Creator™ activity by scofflaws like yourselves? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1200 "2017-12-31T12:23:51Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > **Lynn Stout couldn’t destroy her way out of a paper bag.** > > One of her “notable theories” is in regards to “The importance of human conscience to peace, prosperity, and the rule of law”. Sure, lady. Ivory tower nonsense. So you can’t actually refute what was quoted? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=61)