# The 2017/2018 Trump/GOP tax plan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442 "2017-09-27T17:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1261 "2018-01-02T20:07:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How did you conclude that war is “the primary driver of that debt”? [ > [@](#): > > The United States military has spent more than $5.6 trillion on conflicts since 2001, more than three times the Pentagon’s actual estimate, according to a new study. ]([The Cost of War for the U.S. Taxpayer Since 9/11 Is Actually Three Times the Pentagon's Estimate - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-trillions-war-has-cost-us-taxpayer-911-attacks-705041)) The military budget was just increased to $677 billion/year, so we can expect another $6.7 trillion in spending over the next 10 years. Assuming we don’t expand our operations even further. I’m not sure there’s any better way to cause debt that producing something, paying to ship it to the other side of the world, and then blowing it up. Or paying [$2.1 million/year for each soldier in your army](https://www.yahoo.com/news/it-costs--2-1-million-per-year-for-each-soldier-deployed-in-afghanistan--report-133150602.html) because you deploy almost all of them overseas. But I could be wrong. If we cut our military spending in half to a more reasonable $338 billion/year we could afford 2 of these massive $1.5 trillion tax cuts without creating any budget deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1262 "2018-01-02T20:14:53Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > The military budget was just increased to $677 billion/year, so we can expect another $6.7 trillion in spending over the next 10 years. Just to be clear – some people may read this and think that deficits will go up by $6.7 trillion over the next ten years because of the additional defense spending. In fact, the increases to defense will amount to something around half a trillion dollar in additional deficits during the next decade. That’s because the past level of defense spending is already factored into future estimated deficits, and it is the INCREASE in defense spending that will impact the INCREASE in future deficits. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1263 "2018-01-02T22:52:07Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > And decrease the military budget from being 10X larger than any other country. To nitpick a bit, it might be only about 4x larger than China’s (a lot of China’s military spending is of a hidden or opaque nature.) But yes, the USA does spend way too much on it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1264 "2018-01-03T16:38:35Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > I’m not sure there’s any better way to cause debt that producing something, paying to ship it to the other side of the world, and then blowing it up. Or paying [$2.1 million/year for each soldier in your army](https://www.yahoo.com/news/it-costs--2-1-million-per-year-for-each-soldier-deployed-in-afghanistan--report-133150602.html) because you deploy almost all of them overseas. But I could be wrong. You’re certainly wrong that we are deploying “almost all of” our soldiers overseas. Or that we are paying $2.1 million for each soldier in the army. Beyond which, producing things, shipping them across the world and blowing them up does not necessarily contribute to the deficit. We generally have excess productive capacity, which means government procurement adds more than it costs to GDP growth. And in order to have an effective military, we have to ensure the financial health of the defense contracting establishment whether there’s a war on or not. That is not to say I think we should maintain defense spending at present rates, or keep attacking people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1265 "2018-01-03T16:47:32Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > I’m not sure there’s any better way to cause debt that producing something, paying to ship it to the other side of the world, and then blowing it up. Or paying [$2.1 million/year for each soldier in your army](https://www.yahoo.com/news/it-costs--2-1-million-per-year-for-each-soldier-deployed-in-afghanistan--report-133150602.html) because you deploy almost all of them overseas. But I could be wrong. Yeah, you are wrong. That is the cost for troops deployed in Afghanistan, per your cite. According to that cite, that’s 40,000 troops. That’s a small fraction of the total. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1266 "2018-01-03T16:54:07Z")
I think the GOP seriously underestimated the value of a $1000 or $2000 per year bribe. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1267 "2018-01-03T17:02:24Z")
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money. " - Alexis de Tocqueville ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1268 "2018-01-03T17:04:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money. " > > - Alexis de Tocqueville So you’re saying it never really existed in the first place? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1269 "2018-01-03T19:47:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I think the GOP seriously underestimated the value of a $1000 or $2000 per year bribe. Not sure what you mean. All their main donors will be getting MUCH bigger bribes than that! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1270 "2018-01-03T21:13:57Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > For what it’s worth, this is exactly what is[now being discussed](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/business/high-tax-states-law.html?_r=0). Here they discuss allowing a charitable donation to the state (tax deductible) in lieu of state taxes (no longer tax deductible). They also discuss the payroll tax loophole. > > As Mitt Romney famously told us, it is our civic duty to find all the loopholes and pay the minimum taxes. If the GOP put together a shitty law that has a lot of loopholes, then as an American, it is my duty to use those. Sure. I can see how you can replace the income tax with a higher employer side tax. I don’t see how you predict what everyone’s state tax burden will be considering everyone’s individual situation being different but I suppose there is some way for them to get rough justice and perhaps even collect more taxes in the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1271 "2018-01-05T16:14:58Z")
de Leon in CA (senate Pro Tempore) [introduced a bill in CA](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/business/wp/2018/01/04/new-california-bill-could-serve-as-national-boilerplate-for-skirting-trumps-tax-law/)to allow people to make charitable contributions to a state run fund that would be directed to the state in lieu of paying state income taxes: > [@](#): > > California Senate President Pro Tempore Kevin de León (D) introduced a bill that would allow taxpayers to make a charitable donation to the California Excellence Fund instead of paying certain state taxes. They could then deduct that contribution from their federal taxable income. > > The bill is meant to completely upend part of the tax law that congressional Republicans passed last year. That law contains a provision that sets a new cap of $10,000 on the amount of state and local property and income taxes that can be deducted from federal taxable income. … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1272 "2018-01-05T16:31:53Z")
Bless his heart and everything, but I’ll be knocked silly if that scheme actually works. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1273 "2018-01-05T16:37:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > de Leon in CA (senate Pro Tempore) [introduced a bill in CA](https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/business/wp/2018/01/04/new-california-bill-could-serve-as-national-boilerplate-for-skirting-trumps-tax-law/)to allow people to make charitable contributions to a state run fund that would be directed to the state in lieu of paying state income taxes: Seems charitable contributions are supposed to be voluntary. Taxes generally are not. Sure, if you want to donate to your state above and beyond your assessed tax obligations, then that is charity and so could be seen that way. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1274 "2018-01-05T16:42:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bless his heart and everything, but I’ll be knocked silly if that scheme actually works. I’d be knocked silly if a bill so hastily written didn’t have a bunch of loopholes to get around it. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1275 "2018-01-05T16:45:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Seems charitable contributions are supposed to be voluntary. Taxes generally are not. > > Sure, if you want to donate to your state above and beyond your assessed tax obligations, then that is charity and so could be seen that way. As the article explains, the contribution could be used to offset state taxes, but remains deductible from federal taxes. > [@](#): > > In 2011, the U.S. Supreme Court allowed taxpayers in Arizona to claim tax credits for making charitable contributions to organizations that make payments for children to attend parochial schools. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1276 "2018-01-05T16:53:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Seems charitable contributions are supposed to be voluntary. Taxes generally are not. > > Sure, if you want to donate to your state above and beyond your assessed tax obligations, then that is charity and so could be seen that way. Charitable contributions are voluntary, but I don’t think that’s a requirement based on tax law. Kind of a moot point since there are few if any entities that can compel charitable contributions and so these would still be voluntary. It seems pretty straightforward actually - create a state tax credit for any amount donated to the CA Excellence fund. So when filing your taxes, you determine your state tax liability, and contemporaneously make a donation to the CA excellence fund which would offset your tax liability. The bill also makes the credit associated with this donation carry forward in the event your donation exceeds your tax liability. I see a hurdle for W2 earners who typically withhold their state tax portion, but it’s not that difficult to craft a way around that. [Here’s a portion of the text:](http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB227) > [@](#): > > SECTION 1. Section 17053.88 is added to the Revenue and Taxation Code, to read: > 17053.88. (a) For the taxable years beginning on or after January 1, 2018, there shall be allowed as a credit against the “net tax,” as defined in Section 17039, an amount equal to the amount contributed by the taxpayer for the taxable year to the California Excellence Fund. Looks like de Leon repurposed a previous bill that he introduced from Feb-17. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1277 "2018-01-05T16:57:58Z")
Couldn’t they call it The California Human Fund? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1278 "2018-01-05T23:43:30Z")
I’m not sure it’s in California’s best interest to play “fuck you” games with the IRS, but they’re free to try it I guess. Enjoy your audits. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1279 "2018-01-05T23:55:30Z")
Unless the IRS is going to get a shit ton more auditors, I doubt that’s a realistic thing to be concerned with. Even so, bring on the audits if they want, people should be able to handle those. I actually think this has potential. It’s still a long shot because de Leon is a putz but from a legal standpoint I think it would work. And really, if this were to come to pass in NY and CA and any other high tax state, it’s not like congress has the will to go back and specifically pass a law to close this avenue. What are they going to do, put a cap on charitable contributions? And since I’m in CA, this would be great for me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442/1280 "2018-01-05T23:58:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not sure it’s in California’s best interest to play “fuck you” games with the IRS, but they’re free to try it I guess. Enjoy your audits. Why aren’t you suggesting that the residents of Arizona and Florida ought to be undergoing heavy audits for the donation schemes that their states have implemented? The only reason I can figure is that constituents of McCain and Rubio deserve less tax scrutiny than constituents of that gun grabber Feinstein. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2017-2018-trump-gop-tax-plan/797442.md?page=65)