# The 2025 Papal Conclave **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 5, 2025, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913 "2025-05-05T17:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/221 "2025-05-08T22:34:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I could imagine a different argument being made, that since God is perfect He would never put a soul of one gender in a body matching the other gender, and anyone who feels that He did do that in their case _must_ be mistaken. God may be perfect, but human bodies very frequently are not, even from birth. If God can put a new soul into a body with a harelip, he could also put a new soul into a body that has the “wrong” genitals. > [@Babale](#): > > Of course, one could then ask why He would create a soul that _feels as if_ it was placed in a body with a gender that doesn’t match the soul’s own gender (especially as an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being), but I’m sure someone could come up with a theologically convincing argument for either position. Which is just the problem of evil, but with slightly lower stakes. God gives infants leukemia\*, and we’re told it’s because of “mysterious ways,” but nobody tries to ban pediatric cancer treatment because they’re “going against God’s plan.” \*Allegedly, of course. I don’t believe in this stuff any more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/222 "2025-05-08T22:35:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > God may be perfect, but human bodies very frequently are not, even from birth. If God can put a new soul into a body with a harelip, he could also put a new soul into a body that has the “wrong” genitals. To listen to my fundamentalist friends, that is God testing you. And for them being a woman in a man’s body is a test for you to learn to become a man. 🙄 > [@Miller](#): > > but nobody tries to ban pediatric cancer treatment because they’re “going against God’s plan.” Don’t Jehovah Witnesses and Church of Christ, Scientists ban medical treatment for their members? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/223 "2025-05-08T22:37:35Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > > [@Toxgoddess](#): > > > > How many Americans have ever been heads of state of any other countries? If any, did they renounce their citizenships? > > Boris Johnson was a natural born US citizen, born in New York City to British parents. According to Wikipedia, he renounced it in 2016. > [@N9IWP](#): > > Golda Meir was born in Ukraine (then part of Russian Empire), but moved to Milwaukee and eventually became a naturalized US Citizen. I can’t find if/when she gave up US citizenship. Boris and Golda were not heads of state. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/224 "2025-05-08T22:40:25Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Will the new pope have to renounce US citizenship? > > Of course, otherwise the Vatican Treasure(s) would be subject to taxation by the IRS. Depends on what the legal structure is under canon law. Churches, for example, are normally owned by the diocese, not by the bishop. What US taxes apply to Americans abroad, other than income taxes? Does the Pope get a salary? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/225 "2025-05-08T22:40:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Public and it don’t matter because some events transcend what subject you’re in. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > B) My students are RC How is it a public school but you know that they’re Catholics? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/226 "2025-05-08T22:43:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Let me ask you this, you’re teaching math and the House is electing the President since no one got 270 EVs. You know the vote will take at most 10 minutes. Would you put it on the screen so that interested students could watch it while doing their independent work? Showing a bunch of students the political processes of the country in which they live doesn’t raise questions about the separation of church and state, so that’s not really a relevant comparison. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Don’t Jehovah Witnesses and Church of Christ, Scientists ban medical treatment for their members? Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/227 "2025-05-08T22:43:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I could imagine a different argument being made, that since God is perfect He would never put a soul of one gender in a body matching the other gender, and anyone who feels that He did do that in their case _must_ be mistaken. > > God may be perfect, but human bodies very frequently are not, even from birth. If God can put a new soul into a body with a harelip, he could also put a new soul into a body that has the “wrong” genitals. Exactly. And babies are born with health problems all the time. So either God isn’t perfect, or he doesn’t oversee the properties of individuals. Either way, the proposed argument doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/228 "2025-05-08T22:58:18Z")
OK technically the Prime Minister of Israel is head of government, but I’d argue that is more important for citizenship (the head of state is **mostly** ceremonial) Brian ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/229 "2025-05-08T23:03:08Z")
Fine, head of government. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/230 "2025-05-08T23:05:48Z")
Dumb question, but is nationality even a factor to be considered when electing a pope? Do they specifically think, “Hmmm…let’s make it an American, or Venezuelan, or Swede, or Ethiopian?” What are the usual criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/231 "2025-05-08T23:08:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I could imagine a different argument being made, that since God is perfect He would never put a soul of one gender in a body matching the other gender, and anyone who feels that He did do that in their case _must_ be mistaken. Any such argument would have to contend with the fact that sometimes bodies don’t even match bodies. The fact of gender-non-conforming bodies is incontrovertible. Evidence concerning souls is less clear. Given that bodies can demonstrably be nonconforming, and souls are defined to be right, it’s natural to conclude that some bodies would be mismatched to souls. > [@Babale](#): > > You may know more than me; is there any reason for optimism? My position stems naturally from logic and the Church’s stated position. The Church is made up of humans. So all that’s necessary is for humans to be logical. No, I’m not optimistic, either. > [@Velocity](#): > > Dumb question, but is nationality even a factor to be considered when electing a pope? Do they specifically think, “Hmmm…let’s make it an American, or Venezuelan, or Swede, or Ethiopian?” What are the usual criteria? Definitive knowledge is only had by the Cardinals themselves. But they are, after all, human, and you’d have to imagine it’d play at least some role in their decision-making process. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/232 "2025-05-08T23:09:31Z")
One of the reasons Prevost was a bit of a long shot was because he was American. There’s concern that America having outsized political influence could be a complicating factor for an American Pope. Apparently his other qualities were sufficiently impressive. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/233 "2025-05-08T23:34:07Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I know. And I hate to be such a cynic, but I think it’s warranted in these times: My first thought was, I wonder how tight he is with the current Administration? I’m guessing not at all. Especially since he spent the last 20 years in Peru. And there’s this: > **[On social media, Pope Leo XIV has shared criticism of Trump and Vance over...](https://apnews.com/article/pope-leo-twitter-x-trump-vance-criticism-9c311123985ebce282877071f75b6d80)** > > Newly elected Pope Leo XIV is in a new job that will have many crossovers into politics. It's a realm not entirely unknown to the Chicago-born priest. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/234 "2025-05-08T23:38:36Z")
And this too: [MAGA Melts Down Over New Pope’s Anti-Trump, Pro-Immigrant Social Media](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/maga-melts-down-over-new-pope-s-anti-trump-pro-immigrant-social-media/ar-AA1Eqqh7?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=cdb00494192743adda70564cb32fbf6d&ei=12) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/235 "2025-05-08T23:43:15Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > > [@rocking\_chair](#): > > > > wonder why he went with leo > > It’s his sign. In fact, by modern reckoning, it is. Traditionally, Leo would run from mid July to mid August, but when the signs were recently “adjusted” to reflect orbital precession, it was “revised” to run from early August to mid September, putting Prevost just a couple days from its end cusp. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/236 "2025-05-08T23:47:21Z")
The signs were never adjusted. The Sun is where it is, and we humans can’t change that. Some folks just recognize that and acknowledge where the Sun really is. It hasn’t caught on yet, though. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2025, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/237 "2025-05-08T23:55:58Z")
Until the last few popes, every one for several hundred years was Italian. That was the overwhelming consideration until the naming of John Paul II. In fact, I saw commentary predicting that giving it back to an Italian would be the consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/238 "2025-05-09T00:01:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Showing a bunch of students the political processes of the country in which they live doesn’t raise questions about the separation of church and state, so that’s not really a relevant comparison. > [@Miller](#): > > If you’re teaching in a public school, and it wasn’t relevant to whatever subject you were teaching, well… I don’t love it, > [@Miller](#): > > I feel like it kinda does matter? Sure, if you’re teaching history, or world politics, then this is relevant to what your kids are studying, but I’d be pretty pissed if my kid’s teacher was taking time out of algebra class to watch a religious ceremony. So it’s not about a “wasted” 5 minutes in class showing something that doesn’t have to do with the curriculum? It’s only about him being a religious figure? Believe it or not, I’d agree with you. I still call it Winter Break not Christmas Break and play secular holiday music in my class. But I feel the Pope is an influential _political_ figure and if they had something remotely comparable for electing the President, British PM, Russian President, &c. I would show that as well. About the only thing close would be selecting the new Dalai Lama but that isn’t televised. And again, it was “It’s on if you’re interested.” If a teacher wanted to show the Presidential oath of office with no commentary just if you care - it’s there, I wouldn’t leap to, “Oh my goodness. The teacher is trying to make my kid a MAGA.” ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/239 "2025-05-09T00:04:16Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’m guessing not at all. Especially since he spent the last 20 years in Peru. That’s a good point. Also his past criticism of Trump and Vance. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this too: > > [MAGA Melts Down Over New Pope’s Anti-Trump, Pro-Immigrant Social Media](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/maga-melts-down-over-new-pope-s-anti-trump-pro-immigrant-social-media/ar-AA1Eqqh7?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=cdb00494192743adda70564cb32fbf6d&ei=12) It’s something, I suppose! Thanks both for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913/240 "2025-05-09T00:57:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So it’s not about a “wasted” 5 minutes in class showing something that doesn’t have to do with the curriculum? It’s only about him being a religious figure? Yeah, it’s entirely a church and state thing, sorry if that wasn’t clear. I’m very hardline on the subject, especially in schools. But this is really getting off topic for this thread. Happy to continue it somewhere else if you like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2025-papal-conclave/1017913.md?page=13)