# The 24 Types of Libertarian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120 "2010-06-30T21:50:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/121 "2010-07-06T18:52:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See DENIAL-ICAN. 😉 > > “Just because I’ve voted Republican every election for 20 years is no reason to call me a Republican!” That’s actually a potentially fair complaint. I vote Democrat most of the time, but only because there isn’t a better (read: radically more progressive) viable candidate. So, just because someone usually votes Republican out of sheer practicality doesn’t make them one. However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, and perhaps to explain why, if as a Libertarian they believe in minimal government involvement in both the social and economic arenas, they believe that Republicans will do more to enact or preserve the ecomonic freedoms they desire than the Democrats will for the social ones. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/122 "2010-07-06T19:23:27Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > That’s actually a potentially fair complaint. I vote Democrat most of the time, but only because there isn’t a better (read: radically more progressive) viable candidate. So, just because someone usually votes Republican out of sheer practicality doesn’t make them one. > > However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, and perhaps to explain why, if as a Libertarian they believe in minimal government involvement in both the social and economic arenas, they believe that Republicans will do more to enact or preserve the ecomonic freedoms they desire than the Democrats will for the social ones. That somewhat describes me. I was raised Republican, and continue to vote Republican despite now calling myself a Libertarian. I voted for the Libertarian candidate in the last presidential election, but voted mostly Republican otherwise because there simply weren’t any Libertarian candidates in the other races and I disagree with the Democrat party too much to vote _that_ way. That said, I _have_ voted for Democrats from time to time when it’s plain to me that their Republican opponent is unsuitable, or when I feel a Democrat incumbent is doing a good job. A lot of this boils down to “Is the candidate/incumbent more concerned with serving his/her constituents, or serving his/her party line?” Of course, the main thing that prompted me to “leave” the Republican party was that I was fed up with it being in bed with Evangelical Christianity (though I am a Christian and was raised in Evangelical churches). I found a great quote in a book I read recently: “Mixing politics and religion is like mixing cow manure and ice cream. It doesn’t improve the one, and ruins the other.” (Paraphrased, as I don’t have the book in front of me). ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/123 "2010-07-06T20:57:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Oh wait, Libertarians do get elected to office after all. Here’s a list of the Libertarins who were elected in 2008 > … > … > Admittedly, nine of these nineteen people were running unopposed. And 7 were running for various water boards. Are the libertarians plotting to take control of our precious bodily fluids? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/124 "2010-07-06T21:37:32Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > And 7 were running for various water boards. Are the libertarians plotting to take control of our precious bodily fluids? Well, if you control all the utilities, you can, like, charge double rent … ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/125 "2010-07-06T21:38:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, I find the lack of this much more objectionable, too. “How _dare_ you call me a Republican, even though everything I say toes their party line! It says Democrat on my voter card, so there! Don’t you feel stupid, now?” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/126 "2010-07-07T02:25:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Right. Which is not even the same thing as “fiscal conservative.” In principle a fiscal conservative is hostile only to **deficit spending,** and would find big-government tolerable so long as taxes are high enough to support its cost on a year-to-year basis without borrowing. > > Ross Perot was a true fiscal conservative: He saw the deficit as Problem Number One, and his solution was to cut spending **and** raise taxes, at the same time, until it was eliminated. > > Didn’t get him far. Meh. The term “fiscal conservative” is not as well defined as “libertarian.” I think the person you are describing is “fiscally responsible,” a person often seen only in rebuttal to arguments by a fiscal conservative (which I define as someone who wants a small government/public sector). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/127 "2010-07-07T02:28:36Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > That’s actually a potentially fair complaint. I vote Democrat most of the time, but only because there isn’t a better (read: radically more progressive) viable candidate. So, just because someone usually votes Republican out of sheer practicality doesn’t make them one. > > However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, and perhaps to explain why, if as a Libertarian they believe in minimal government involvement in both the social and economic arenas, they believe that Republicans will do more to enact or preserve the ecomonic freedoms they desire than the Democrats will for the social ones. That’s why I support Republicans. I can control my own feelings about gay folks (I’m OK with 'em), and the Supreme Court has taken abortion out of the hands of the executive and legislative branches in large part, so I want those with the ability to control the size of government to share my belief in the value of a smaller government. Now, this stance gets strained when the Republicans get all DOMA and evangelical on my ass, but that doesn’t bother me as much as ObamaCare and stimulus spending and bailouts and never-ending unemployment extensions and cap-and-fap etc. etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/128 "2010-07-07T21:39:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That’s why I support Republicans. I can control my own feelings about gay folks (I’m OK with 'em), and the Supreme Court has taken abortion out of the hands of the executive and legislative branches in large part, so I want those with the ability to control the size of government to share my belief in the value of a smaller government. But, the Republicans – that is, those in office – **don’t** share your belief in the value of a smaller government. They **say** they do, but they obviously don’t mean it, no more than they mean it when they (very occasionally) talk about term limits. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/129 "2010-07-07T23:11:13Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > That’s actually a potentially fair complaint. I vote Democrat most of the time, but only because there isn’t a better (read: radically more progressive) viable candidate. So, just because someone usually votes Republican out of sheer practicality doesn’t make them one. > > However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, and perhaps to explain why, if as a Libertarian they believe in minimal government involvement in both the social and economic arenas, they believe that Republicans will do more to enact or preserve the ecomonic freedoms they desire than the Democrats will for the social ones. I’m a Libertarian (or is it libertarian?) who would vote Democrat if I bothered to vote at all. It seems to be that most folks on the Dope think Libertarians are right-leaning. This isn’t my experience at all. Is that true outside of my circle? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/130 "2010-07-08T01:01:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the Republicans – that is, those in office – **don’t** share your belief in the value of a smaller government. They **say** they do, but they obviously don’t mean it, no more than they mean it when they (very occasionally) talk about term limits. Right, I understand. Republicans are bad, so they do bad things. But Republican spending is a different animal than Democrat spending. Republicans may spend money on wars you disagree with, but they don’t enact new long-term entitlements that entail spiraling amounts of spending forever into the future. So, I think there’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/131 "2010-07-08T01:24:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, I understand. Republicans are bad, so they do bad things. > > But Republican spending is a different animal than Democrat spending. Republicans may spend money on wars you disagree with, but they don’t enact new long-term entitlements that entail spiraling amounts of spending forever into the future. So, I think there’s a difference. “They may spend money killing people but, _by GOD, man,_ they are not going to spend it helping people!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/132 "2010-07-08T01:32:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Right. Which is not even the same thing as “fiscal conservative.” In principle a fiscal conservative is hostile only to **deficit spending,** and would find big-government tolerable so long as taxes are high enough to support its cost on a year-to-year basis without borrowing. > > Ross Perot was a true fiscal conservative: He saw the deficit as Problem Number One, and his solution was to cut spending **and** raise taxes, at the same time, until it was eliminated. > > Didn’t get him far. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > That’s actually a potentially fair complaint. I vote Democrat most of the time, but only because there isn’t a better (read: radically more progressive) viable candidate. So, just because someone usually votes Republican out of sheer practicality doesn’t make them one. > > However, it \*does \*behoove the person to acknowledge that their idealogy falls closer to the Republican camp to the Democratic one, and perhaps to explain why, if as a Libertarian they believe in minimal government involvement in both the social and economic arenas, they believe that Republicans will do more to enact or preserve the ecomonic freedoms they desire than the Democrats will for the social ones. > [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > That somewhat describes me. I was raised Republican, and continue to vote Republican despite now calling myself a Libertarian. I voted for the Libertarian candidate in the last presidential election, but voted mostly Republican otherwise because there simply weren’t any Libertarian candidates in the other races and I disagree with the Democrat party too much to vote _that_ way. That said, I _have_ voted for Democrats from time to time when it’s plain to me that their Republican opponent is unsuitable, or when I feel a Democrat incumbent is doing a good job. A lot of this boils down to “Is the candidate/incumbent more concerned with serving his/her constituents, or serving his/her party line?” > > Of course, the main thing that prompted me to “leave” the Republican party was that I was fed up with it being in bed with Evangelical Christianity (though I am a Christian and was raised in Evangelical churches). I found a great quote in a book I read recently: “Mixing politics and religion is like mixing cow manure and ice cream. It doesn’t improve the one, and ruins the other.” (Paraphrased, as I don’t have the book in front of me). > **[How Libertarians Vote](https://leftycartoons.com/2008/10/09/how-libertarians-vote/)** > > Visit the post for more. To the OP, thanks for the tip on the neat cartoonist. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/133 "2010-07-08T01:38:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m a Libertarian (or is it libertarian?) who would vote Democrat if I bothered to vote at all. It seems to be that most folks on the Dope think Libertarians are right-leaning. This isn’t my experience at all. Is that true outside of my circle? You smoke out don’t you? Look at the cartoon in the OP and look at the frame in the bottom right hand corner, then look at the one right above that. You are one of those guys aren’t you? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, I understand. Republicans are bad, so they do bad things. > > But Republican spending is a different animal than Democrat spending. Republicans may spend money on wars you disagree with, but they don’t enact new long-term entitlements that entail spiraling amounts of spending forever into the future. So, I think there’s a difference. Ever hear of the military industrial complex? There is a reason they say “discretionary, non-military budget” when they talk about where we have wiggle room in the budget because the military budget is pretty sticky too. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/134 "2010-07-08T01:42:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ever hear of the military industrial complex? There is a reason they say “discretionary, non-military budget” when they talk about where we have wiggle room in the budget because the military budget is pretty sticky too. Ever hear of the concept of advancing an argument that the person you are responding to just argued against? If not, you may want to look into it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/135 "2010-07-08T03:17:16Z")
Lol, I know several of the Island ones. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/136 "2010-07-08T09:06:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You smoke out don’t you? Look at the cartoon in the OP and look at the frame in the bottom right hand corner, then look at the one right above that. You are one of those guys aren’t you? Yes, I think the war on drugs is ridiculous. But I guess I’m just a nutjob. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/137 "2010-07-08T14:58:22Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m a Libertarian (or is it libertarian?) who would vote Democrat if I bothered to vote at all. It seems to be that most folks on the Dope think Libertarians are right-leaning. This isn’t my experience at all. Is that true outside of my circle? Anybody I’ve met who’s a self-identified (L/l)ibertarian has voted Republican when it comes down to choosing between the big two. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/138 "2010-07-08T15:16:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, I understand. Republicans are bad, so they do bad things. > > But Republican spending is a different animal than Democrat spending. Republicans may spend money on wars you disagree with, but they don’t enact new long-term entitlements that entail spiraling amounts of spending forever into the future. So, I think there’s a difference. The Pubs controlled Congress and the WH (and for all intents and purposes the SCOTUS) from 2001 through 2007. In all that time, what did they actually do to get rid of “long-term entitlements”? And what can you really expect them to do if they should get into power again? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/139 "2010-07-08T15:39:53Z")
For bonus points, compare/contrast to actual steps Republicans have taken to destroy social freedoms (e.g., same-sex marriage). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120/140 "2010-07-08T16:49:29Z")
As long as Democrats demagogue against business, support highly progressive taxes, embrace interventionist economic policies, trade tariffs, and a bigger regulatory state, they will never get the support of libertarians. Libertarians oppose the Patriot Act and the religious right, but the fact is that those policies have limited effect on most people. But high taxes and regulations affect everyone. And since many libertarians are small business owners or at least highly sympathetic to small business, policies which burden small businesses with new rules and regulations tend to hit them where they live. And on paper the Democrats may be for more social freedoms, but then on paper the Republicans are for smaller government. The reality in both cases is quite different. The Democrats have controlled congress for years. They’ve controlled the White House for almost two years. Just what have they done in that time that Libertarians like? Let’s see… - Gitmo’s still there - Gay Marriage hasn’t been legalized - Pot hasn’t been legalized - The Patriot act is still there - Warrantless Wiretapping is still there - The Presidency is still clamoring for more power and being secretive - The promise of transparent government turned into even less transparency than Bush - Afghanistan is being ramped up Not a single thing that caused libertarians to dislike Bush has been reversed. And in the meantime, Democrats have used the stimulus to funnel money to government union employees and cronies. They promise increased regulation over the economy. They want higher taxes on the rich and on business. They’re trying to push through cap and trade and card check despite both programs being overwhelmingly unpopular. They stopped holding town hall meetings once they found out their policies weren’t very popular. They’re passing laws at midnight and slipping in amendments from lobbyists just like the Republicans did. Just what exactly have the Democrats done that would make any libertarian remotely consider voting for them? What steps have they taken to expand personal liberty and reduce the impact of government on the lives of the people? And defining ‘fiscal conservative’ as being simply about deficits is rhetorical sleight of hand. To the extent that libertarians are fiscally conservative, it means they want a balanced budget _in the context of smaller government_. No fiscal conservative I’ve ever met would be happy with doubling the size of government so long as taxes doubled to match. From the standpoint of libertarians and libertarian-leaning independents, the Democrats really blew it in this election cycle. After the big government, big spending Bush years, Libertarians were actually ready to accept an alternative. There was talk of ‘liberaltarianism’ in libertarian circles. A lot of them voted for Obama, on his promise of smaller deficits, smaller but smarter government, an end to race demagoguery, more transparent government, legalized gay marriage, and his generally moderate and calm persona. Had Democrats acted more like Bill Clinton’s neo-liberal Democrats (you know, the guy who declared “The era of big government is over”, and who reformed welfare and signed NAFTA), Obama would have a 65% approval rating right now, and you guys would be maintaining your big majorities in the next election. But no, Obama’s promises turned out to be a smoke screen. The Democrats that were elected turned out to be old school lefties, driven by issues of inequality, race, big labor, antipathy to business and markets, a belief that governments should manage business and markets, antipathy to free trade, and in general pushing policies that would result in a more statist America. Very few Americans literally describe themselves as ‘libertarian’. That may be because of the fringe views of some prominent libertarians, or because people generally identify with the two party system and don’t embrace third parties. But when you actually poll their views, you find a large percentage of Americans generally fall on the libertarian axis in the sense that they prefer smaller government to larger government, fewer regulations to more regulations, balanced budgets to deficits, lower taxes to high taxes, etc. The Democrats had a chance to capture those people. They blew it. That’s why Obama’s popularity is down in the mid 40’s, and congress much lower. Two years ago, libertarian blogs and forums were full of debates over whether a good libertarian should vote Democrat or Republican. Today, not so much. In fact, a lot of commentary consists of Obama-voting libertarians apologizing for their vote, and other libertarians screaming, “I told you so!” at them. It’s quite tedious, actually. In any event, the short window of opportunity for Democrats to court the libertarians has passed. You’ll find approximately zero libertarian support for Democrats in the next election, which is the main reason they’re going to get hammered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-24-types-of-libertarian/545120.md?page=8)