# The 2nd Amendment, Militias, and the threat of secession. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003 "2010-06-30T00:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/41 "2010-06-30T11:19:47Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > A man with a claw hammer can kill just as easy as a man with a gun, he just has to be closer. Bullshit. You come at me with a claw hammer, I’ve got a chance to fight back. Come at me with a gun, I have to hope you miss. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/42 "2010-06-30T12:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > If the government took away firearms from it’s citizens ONLY THE LAW ABIDING WOULD TURN THEM IN. Do you really think criminals would just hand over their weapons? No, they would hear Cha CHING! in their heads with a big grin because now there is no opposition. Only terrorized unarmed people hoping the cops show up at the right time. No problem. All the law abiding citizens can go down to Lowes and buy claw hammers, which I hear are just as effective a weapon as a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/43 "2010-06-30T13:01:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Doesn’t matter; those law abiding citizens are the primary source of guns for those criminals. Did you think they were robbing the military? > > As opposed to dead armed people, or the dead friends and relatives of those armed people. Do you really think you and your gun are going to scare criminals? Do you really think that you are going to beat some guy in a gunfight who will almost certainly shoot first, and likely from behind? Being a bad guy and all. Yes, I feel 98% confident that I would win any firefight that some bum criminal brought to me. 2% going to the criminal for ricochets and luck. It’s these factors that make me so positive: 1. I am combat hardened and have no problem taking a life if need be. (Most criminals have never killed anybody). 2. He is coming at me on my land which I know more than anybody. 3. Fire superiority is on my side, unless he is coming at me with a full combat load of 240 rounds. And if that’s the case, it’s going to be a fun night. 4. Shock will out sway just about any criminal in the act, if you shock them with loud strong verbal commands, “drop your weapon, drop your weapon, get on the ground, get on the ground” while pointing your weapon at them. More than likely that would be all it would need to end the situation. Once again, most criminals have never killed a person, I don’t care who you are, when you take a life for the first time, it has a huge impact on you. Criminal, Civilian, Military, Law Enforcement alike. 5. And the one thing that will more likely “Trump” everything above from ever happening is the little sign outside my house that reads: "This home and property are protected by GE alarm systems, Kimber .45, and a Black Lab named Remington. (It’s a piece of paper on a piece of wood for now, I have a friend making a metal one for me in his shop, that I hopefully will get one day.) I know from one of my jobs that criminals almost never like a challenge, they look for the easy score. That’s why you never hear of an armed person being robbed, it’s usually always a little old person or a man and girlfriend/wife. The path of least resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/44 "2010-06-30T13:04:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No problem. All the law abiding citizens can go down to Lowes and buy claw hammers, which I hear are just as effective a weapon as a firearm. You people really misconstrued that statement. If I am a criminal in a CQ situation a firearm can kill you at my command, or I can smack you with a claw hammer and still kill you. Either way they can both be turned into deadly weapons. I never said about the ease of one to the other. The point is, you don’t need a gun to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/45 "2010-06-30T13:16:07Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > Yes, I feel 98% confident that I would win any firefight that some bum criminal brought to me. 2% going to the criminal for ricochets and luck. > > It’s these factors that make me so positive: > > 1. I am combat hardened and have no problem taking a life if need be. (Most criminals have never killed anybody). > > 2. He is coming at me on my land which I know more than anybody. > > 3. Fire superiority is on my side, unless he is coming at me with a full combat load of 240 rounds. And if that’s the case, it’s going to be a fun night. > > 4. Shock will out sway just about any criminal in the act, if you shock them with loud strong verbal commands, “drop your weapon, drop your weapon, get on the ground, get on the ground” while pointing your weapon at them. More than likely that would be all it would need to end the situation. Once again, most criminals have never killed a person, I don’t care who you are, when you take a life for the first time, it has a huge impact on you. Criminal, Civilian, Military, Law Enforcement alike. The “Internet tough guy” syndrome strikes again. What, do you stay awake every night clutching your guns waiting and hoping someone will show up? ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/46 "2010-06-30T13:30:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “Internet tough guy” syndrome strikes again. What, do you stay awake every night clutching your guns waiting and hoping someone will show up? Hardly, I sleep like a rock like everybody else. I am hardly a tough guy though. And why is it when somebody shows confidence it’s twisted around to be the “Tough Guy”. I am prepared is all. I have been to combat, I have killed people. I have watched as a .50 Cal has blown apart a bongo truck turning the driver into soup. I have shot 203 HEDP rounds at people and watched their skin separate from their bodies and lay on the ground then dogs come by and drag the parts away. I have pictures a video of most of it. That is fact, not tough guy. There is nothing wrong with being confident and prepared. And for the record, I never hope and wish somebody tries to rob us. I never ever want to take another American’s life, even if they are a criminal bum piece of trash. But if he wants my stuff, he will have to work for it. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/47 "2010-06-30T13:38:28Z")
And to further that “for the record” when I said “And if that’s the case, it’s going to be a fun night.” I was being sarcastic, that might be where you got the “tough guy” from. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/48 "2010-06-30T13:44:56Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > New York State has a Militia, with both sea _and_ air wings. That are not part of the national guard. Individual units of it have existed since before the Revolution. > [New York Guard - Wikipedia](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/New_York_Guard) > > I’m not seeing the threat here. [State Defense Forces](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/State_Defense_Force) exist because they are permitted by federal law- the “consent of Congress” mentioned in Article One Section Ten Clause Three of the Constitution. In theory, that consent could be withdrawn and the states forbidden to have anything that could be considered “troops”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/49 "2010-06-30T13:53:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Assuming that to be true, why should I care? They also didn’t consider blacks human. Why should I care about their view of “state’s rights” more than I care about their view of race relations? Because the Constitution was lawfully amended to alter the one, but remains exactly the same toward the other. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/50 "2010-06-30T13:58:45Z")
If a state decides to establish its own militia, and said militia decides it can do the job better than the governor and forcefully takes over, can the Federal Government step in without being asked to reestablish civilian government? Should they? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/51 "2010-06-30T14:01:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Since “states rights” in American politics is, exclusively, a code for anti-black racism, it has nothing to do with any side of the gun issue. Actually, anti-black racism was the reason for the first widespread enactment of gun control laws (parts of the postwar “Black Codes”). The Fourteenth Amendment was adopted to strike down such laws: [QUOTE=Senator Jacob Howard, re the then-proposed Fourteenth Amendment] [T]he personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as freedom of speech and of the press… the right to keep and bear arms… The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore, to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/52 "2010-06-30T14:03:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Which is one reason I do not advocate banning guns. Few people do. But you don’t have any constitutional right to own a rocket propelled grenade, or Stinger missile. Not even if YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS or even stamp your foot. That’s what the militia clause means; it provides context for interpreting the term “arms” (which refers to standard-infantry issue, not heavy weapons). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/53 "2010-06-30T14:05:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Doesn’t matter; those law abiding citizens are the primary source of guns for those criminals. Maybe they should prohibit law-abiding citizens from possession cocaine and heroin so criminals can’t get any. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/54 "2010-06-30T14:15:15Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Maybe they should prohibit law-abiding citizens from possession cocaine and heroin so criminals can’t get any. :rolleyes: You can’t grow guns or whip them up in a flask. More to the point, if guns weren’t easily available criminals likely wouldn’t bother trying to get them. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/55 "2010-06-30T14:52:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You can’t grow guns or whip them up in a flask. More to the point, if guns weren’t easily available criminals likely wouldn’t bother trying to get them. Sure they would, most criminals don’t get their guns by robbing gun owners. (I’m sure some do). They get them on the black market which come from drug cartels shipping them in from another country. Look at what is going on down on the US / Mexico border. Loads and loads of drugs and guns are coming over. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/56 "2010-06-30T14:55:29Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > Sure they would, most criminals don’t get their guns by robbing gun owners. (I’m sure some do). They get them on the black market which come from drug cartels shipping them in from another country. They get it on the black market, the supply for which largely which comes from robbing gun owners. It’s other countries that have to worry about American guns ending up in the hands of their criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/57 "2010-06-30T15:06:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They get it on the black market, the supply for which largely which comes from robbing gun owners. It’s other countries that have to worry about American guns ending up in the hands of their criminals. When we got briefed on the violence in Mexico and that we might have to go down to the border, the primary weapon being used is the AK47. The illegal trade in small arms is prevalent in many countries and regions affected by political instability. That being said, almost every gun owner in the US would have to have been robbed at least once in their lifetime to have supplied the gorillas and freedom fighters and gangs in the US and Mexico with the amount of firearms they have. The last cashe found with the largest amount of AK47’s were made in Yugoslavia and were still in their packing grease, (never fired). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/58 "2010-06-30T15:09:47Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > c) Neither is a threat to the Republic. Men with ideas are dangerous. Weapons are merely hardware. That’s why Tim McVeigh was more dangerous than William F Buckley. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/59 "2010-06-30T15:52:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You can’t grow guns or whip them up in a flask. You don’t whip them up in a flask; you whip them up in a tool-and-die shop. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/60 "2010-06-30T17:46:51Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > That’s what the militia clause means; it provides context for interpreting the term “arms” (which refers to standard-infantry issue, not heavy weapons). Perhaps, although I believe that any firearms which the Special Weapons And Tactics unit of a civilian police force can have should have to be legal for citizens to possess as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003.md?page=4)