# The 2nd Amendment, Militias, and the threat of secession. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003 "2010-06-30T00:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/61 "2010-06-30T21:14:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I won’t ignore the last half of the sentence if you won’t ignore the first half. “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state…” By your narrow construction, only one state may have a militia; it does say “…a free state…,” singular, _not_ “the states,” or “the several states.” _A_ state. The best and only logical conclusion is that the first half is an explanatory clause, not a conditional one, as there were 13 states at the time of the writing of the BOR, and 14 (+Vermont) by the time of its ratification, with the 15th (Kentucky) following just 6 months later. As to our earlier quibble, of course Hamilton would argue that the militia should be regulated (under the control of) the _federal_ government; he was one of three writers of the _Federalist Papers!_ I found it interesting that you left out a few critical sections of 29: > [@](#): > > It requires no skill in the science of war to discern that uniformity in the organization and discipline of the militia would be attended with the most beneficial effects, whenever they were called into service for the public defense. It would enable them to discharge the duties of the camp and of the field with mutual intelligence and concert an advantage of peculiar moment in the operations of an army; and it would fit them much sooner to acquire the degree of proficiency in military functions which would be essential to their usefulness. This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union “to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, RESERVING TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY THE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS, AND THE AUTHORITY OF TRAINING THE MILITIA ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS.” In one paragraph, he makes a case for both the regulation (training, organization, etc.) of the militia even as he calls for the regulation (subordination to national authourity) of the militia. He uses both accepted definitions of the term _regulate_ in the same paragraph, with the context in which they are used quite obviously giving which definition is in use in any particular instance. Further: > [@](#): > > But so far from viewing the matter in the same light with those who object to select corps as dangerous, were the Constitution ratified, and were I to deliver my sentiments to a member of the federal legislature from this State on the subject of a militia establishment, I should hold to him, in substance, the following discourse: > > “The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. **Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped;** and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.” If you want to “regulate” me, you can station a militia officer or magistrate at my local gun range and see me at least once a month! Me being one of those never-to-be-sufficiently-damned “fetishists” and all. > [@](#): > > “But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. **This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms,** who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.” I actually wouldn’t mind seeing the U.S. going back to Hamilton’s original vision, and all good liberals should, too. That way national leaders like “W” and Darth Cheney couldn’t lead us into futile, bloody wars of imperial agression and oligarchal oppression against whomever, for lack of a sufficiently sized national army to do so. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/62 "2010-06-30T23:56:26Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The Second Amendment indisputably _refers_ to state militias. It’s in the text, explicitly. > > The only _question_ about that is whether the second part of the construction is implied to be situationally dependent on the first–that is, did the Framers intend us to understand that, should we no longer find a well-regulated militia to be necessary to the security of a free state, it would necessarily follow that the right of the people to keep and bear arms _could_ then be infringed. > > I do not agree with that interpretation. The Constitution was meant to say what it says, and it says what it was meant to mean, and if we find that circumstances warrant different rules, the procedure for change _is_ spelled out. So we have been negligent in not repealing it? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/63 "2010-07-01T03:46:01Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > Sure they would, most criminals don’t get their guns by robbing gun owners. (I’m sure some do). They get them on the black market which come from drug cartels shipping them in from another country. You can’t be serious. Drug cartels aren’t shipping handguns from foreign lands into the US to arm most, many, or any significant number of crimals. They don’t need to, they can already be purchased legally here. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/64 "2010-07-01T11:38:00Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You can’t be serious. Drug cartels aren’t shipping handguns from foreign lands into the US to arm most, many, or any significant number of crimals. They don’t need to, they can already be purchased legally here. Actually, there are quite a few police reports of drug cartels engaged in gun-running, for the obvious reason that they’d rather get the profit themselves than let some other gun dealer get it. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/65 "2010-07-01T12:34:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You can’t be serious. Drug cartels aren’t shipping handguns from foreign lands into the US to arm most, many, or any significant number of crimals. They don’t need to, they can already be purchased legally here. That is what we heard during our briefing. I understand what your saying though, but if you commit any kind of felony, you are no longer aloud to purchase firearms Legally. And I was mostly talking about assault weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/66 "2010-07-01T13:12:53Z")
I’m not even good with tools and I could put together a functioning single-shot pistol or shotgun in about an hour out of stuff purchased at Home Depot. A fellow with some basic machine tools and skills can run off basic blowback submachineguns and suppressors. A guy with something like a tool and die shop can produce basically any gun he wants. The invention of computer controlled machine tools has caused a nifty little boutique gun industry to spring up in the US… Bottom line is guns are never going to be uninvented. If I were a goblin and possessed of goblin spite, and I decided I wanted a gun; I’d have one and no law would stop me. If I couldn’t make one or buy one on the black market, I’d move up to ambushing a cop or soldier and taking his. Further, I’d probably want to indulge my goblin spite through arson, explosives, and the like if destabilizing the government was my goal. I wouldn’t need any gun at all for that. ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/67 "2010-07-01T14:05:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’m not even good with tools and I could put together a functioning single-shot pistol or shotgun in about an hour out of stuff purchased at Home Depot. A fellow with some basic machine tools and skills can run off basic blowback submachineguns and suppressors. A guy with something like a tool and die shop can produce basically any gun he wants. The invention of computer controlled machine tools has caused a nifty little boutique gun industry to spring up in the US… > Bottom line is guns are never going to be uninvented. If I were a goblin and possessed of goblin spite, and I decided I wanted a gun; I’d have one and no law would stop me. If I couldn’t make one or buy one on the black market, I’d move up to ambushing a cop or soldier and taking his. > Further, I’d probably want to indulge my goblin spite through arson, explosives, and the like if destabilizing the government was my goal. I wouldn’t need any gun at all for that. Very true post. My friends Dad made a .410 zip gun out of steel pipe and such. It worked every time he shot it. And your right about bomb making, many household chemicals can be turned explosive. And anybody can buy a gallon of gas, rag and a lighter. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/68 "2010-07-01T15:19:56Z")
> [@furt](#): > > One of the reasons many are upset with the ruling is that even the four dissenting justices regarded the 2nd amendment as dealing with an individual right: not one of the 9 justices gave any creedence whatsoever to the idea, held by many armchair jurists, that the 2nd amendment referred to state militias. That idea seems now dead and buried. I think its pretty clear for a while that the right to bear arms is an individual right. > [@](#): > > So, then, the debate. Which is a greater threat to the republic: a nationwide citizenry with limited and regulated small-arms ownership, or state militias without oversight from the federal government? And THIS is why I think the right to bear arms is an individual right. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/69 "2010-07-01T15:27:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > My point is that at the time of the framing of the Constitution, there was not one, unambiguous definition of “regulated”, though those who wish to interpret the second amendment as a suicide pact find it useful to trot out that definition as if it was. How is the second amendment a suicide pact? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/70 "2010-07-01T15:51:00Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > If the government took away firearms from it’s citizens ONLY THE LAW ABIDING WOULD TURN THEM IN. Do you really think criminals would just hand over their weapons? No, they would hear Cha CHING! in their heads with a big grin because now there is no opposition. Only terrorized unarmed people hoping the cops show up at the right time. Many countries that currently have a firearms bans had to deal with this exact situation and they did not experience the phenomenon that you describe. One example would be South Korea after the Korean war when there were M-1 Garands and AK-47s literally lying on teh ground. The government banned civilian ownership of firearms and pretty soon, the criminals were threatening citizens (and each other) with swords and axes. Of course the early history of the Republic of Korea also includes a dicatorship by the only folks who had guns (a military dictaroship) that lasted until relatively recently in korean history. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/71 "2010-07-01T17:12:58Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > Sure they would, most criminals don’t get their guns by robbing gun owners. (I’m sure some do). They get them on the black market which come from drug cartels shipping them in from another country. Look at what is going on down on the US / Mexico border. Loads and loads of drugs and guns are coming over. I don’t know how to tell you this but most guns are not manufactured in Mexico, the drug cartels get their guns from teh same people they sell their drugs to. At least is helps even out the trade deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/72 "2010-07-01T17:15:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They get it on the black market, the supply for which largely which comes from robbing gun owners. It’s other countries that have to worry about American guns ending up in the hands of their criminals. They don’t have to rob gun owners. They just buy them from gun dealers. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/73 "2010-07-01T17:33:04Z")
Surely someone has published statistics showing a cross-section of illegally-held firearms used in the perpetration of crimes by manufacturer and model. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/74 "2010-07-01T17:46:57Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I actually wouldn’t mind seeing the U.S. going back to Hamilton’s original vision, and all good liberals should, too. That way national leaders like “W” and Darth Cheney couldn’t lead us into futile, bloody wars of imperial agression and oligarchal oppression against whomever, for lack of a sufficiently sized national army to do so. Unfortunately, the relationship of the militas and the Federal government was turned on it’s head early in the Twentieth century by two things: first, the 1903 Militia Act defined the entire “select” or “organized” militia- those that step forward to volunteer for service- as effectively Army Reserve troops, and that status has become more entrenched with every decade until we now have National Guards troops fighting a foreign war with multiple or even indefinite extensions of their tours. Hence “One Weekend a Month, MY ASS”. The second was the Supreme Court ruling during World War One that the power of Congress to declare war included an implicit power to make sure the Army had the troops it needed- by conscription if need be. (This would have astonished Abraham Lincoln, since during the Civil War the Union payed millions of dollars in bounties to get men to sign up for three-year tours of duty in the regular army, rather than serve short term in miliia units.) I’'m sure that if we did have universal military training like the Swiss or Israelis, people like Cheney would find some legalistic excuse to claim they would have to serve abroad indefinitely. Of course then you might have something like what happened during the Civil War when, according to James Macpherson, “armed bands of draft dodgers and deserters practially ruled entire counties” ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/75 "2010-07-01T18:01:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Surely someone has published statistics showing a cross-section of illegally-held firearms used in the perpetration of crimes by manufacturer and model. Right? Yep. The most commonly used firearms in crimes were small caliber, low magazine capacity cheap firearms (like kel-tec) and pump action shotguns (also cheap). ---
**Author:** ![Punisher\_11B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punisher\_11B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punisher_11B)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/76 "2010-07-02T03:21:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know how to tell you this but most guns are not manufactured in Mexico, the drug cartels get their guns from teh same people they sell their drugs to. At least is helps even out the trade deficit. I never once said that guns were manufactured in Mexico, not one time. Please read all the posts before you try to shove your misinformed words on me. In fact I said that the largest single cashe of guns found were made in Yugoslavia found still in their packing grease. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/77 "2010-07-02T04:04:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Armed_ men with ideas are more dangerous then unarmed men with ideas if they feel that being armed partially validates their ideas. Ghandi and Jesus were pretty dangerous tot he establishment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/78 "2010-07-02T04:17:22Z")
> [@Punisher\_11B](#): > > Sure they would, most criminals don’t get their guns by robbing gun owners. (I’m sure some do). They get them on the black market which come from drug cartels shipping them in from another country. Look at what is going on down on the US / Mexico border. Loads and loads of drugs and guns are coming over. From watching [_Jackie Brown,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Brown_%28film%29) I thought that trade flowed in the other direction. (And if Quentin Tarantino’s not an authority on crime, who is?! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/79 "2010-07-02T04:22:26Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Ghandi and Jesus were pretty dangerous tot he establishment. Yes, well, certain 20th-Century establishments worked it out that you don’t take a man with dangerous ideas and crucify him in public; you simply cause him to quietly vanish in the middle of the night. If Gandhi had been dealing with that kind of establishment, you never would have heard of him. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003/80 "2010-07-02T12:19:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If a state decides to establish its own militia, and said militia decides it can do the job better than the governor and forcefully takes over, can the Federal Government step in without being asked to reestablish civilian government? Should they? Absolutely. it has nothing to do with “who could do a better job” (whatever that means). It’s about legitimacy. Our system of government has built in mechanisms at the Federal, State and Local levels for replacing members of that government if their constituants feel they aren’t doing a good job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-militias-and-the-threat-of-secession/545003.md?page=5)