# The 2nd Amendment solution to Tyrannical Government **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244 "2016-06-24T15:53:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/61 "2016-06-28T17:29:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could either be possible through executive edict? Martial law? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/62 "2016-06-28T18:32:18Z")
i can think of many examples of the need for a “2nd amendment solution”: 1. President declares he will not vacate his office as scheduled. 2. Congress passes a law restricting our rights, President signs it, SCOTUS strikes it down, President and Congress say they will ignore the Supreme Court. Then the people have to enforce the Supreme Court ruling 3. A state refuses to implement a law that they are not legally required to implement and the federal government responds with military force. 4. A government at any level categorically refuses to protect the citizenry for political reasons, such as when southern states refused to prosecute or prevent lynchings. 5. The government attempts any use of force against large numbers of citizens that is vastly out of proportion to the problem the government claims to be trying to solve. For example, if the government decided to start charging people who didn’t have health insurance with a felony. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/63 "2016-06-28T18:37:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > i can think of many examples of the need for a “2nd amendment solution”: > > 1. President declares he will not vacate his office as scheduled. > 2. Congress passes a law restricting our rights, President signs it, SCOTUS strikes it down, President and Congress say they will ignore the Supreme Court. Then the people have to enforce the Supreme Court ruling > 3. A state refuses to implement a law that they are not legally required to implement and the federal government responds with military force. > 4. A government at any level categorically refuses to protect the citizenry for political reasons, such as when southern states refused to prosecute or prevent lynchings. > 5. The government attempts any use of force against large numbers of citizens that is vastly out of proportion to the problem the government claims to be trying to solve. For example, if the government decided to start charging people who didn’t have health insurance with a felony. Of those, your example #4 seems to have happened, but no “2nd Amendment solution” resulted, as far as I know. Apparently it _wasn’t_ enough to trigger such a reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/64 "2016-06-28T18:38:15Z")
Unless Americans are especially prone to tyranny, the multiple examples of other functioning democracies clearly shows that widespread private gun ownership is _not_ critical to safeguarding freedom. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/65 "2016-06-28T18:52:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Of those, your example #4 seems to have happened, but no “2nd Amendment solution” resulted, as far as I know. Apparently it _wasn’t_ enough to trigger such a reaction. Japanese internment is another example where an armed response would have been justified. The reason it didn’t happen in either case is because the hated minority will lose. But that doesn’t mean that armed resistance wouldn’t be justified, and if it worked, all the better. I can also see scenarios where the majority is not protected by the state because the state would just rather not for whatever reason(maybe the politicians are in the pocket of a major drug dealer who wants his goons to be above the law?) and that causing a violent backlash. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/66 "2016-06-28T18:54:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Unless Americans are especially prone to tyranny, the multiple examples of other functioning democracies clearly shows that widespread private gun ownership is _not_ critical to safeguarding freedom. A lot of democracies have become tyrannical for various reasons and spawned armed resistance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/67 "2016-06-28T18:59:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Japanese internment is another example where an armed response would have been justified. The reason it didn’t happen in either case is because the hated minority will lose. But that doesn’t mean that armed resistance wouldn’t be justified, and if it worked, all the better. This example and your previous tells me that the 2nd Amendment might be useful for fighting against tyranny…against “us”(those that belong to the militias and their supporters), not “them”(those that are “different”). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/68 "2016-06-28T19:06:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Japanese internment is another example where an armed response would have been justified. I daresay if the Americans of Japanese descent had taken up arms against the government to fight against internment, you would be hardpressed to find a 2nd Amendment supporter that would side with them. In fact, most of them would probably have been willing to hunt their fellow citizens down. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/69 "2016-06-28T19:09:57Z")
No, which is one reason it didn’t happen. Japanese-Americans weren’t going to engage in a futile fight, plus any resistance would have just proven to Americans that they were not to be trusted. I’m just saying that such crimes are worthy of armed resistance, but obviously any armed resistance should have a chance of actually succeeding, or else it’s just wasting lives for no good reason. Today we live in a time where a minority the government would want to oppress would have many supporters among the majority, perhaps enough to threaten an armed response if the government went too far, which would hopefully have the effect of deterring the government from provoking said armed response. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/70 "2016-06-28T19:10:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > i can think of many examples of the need for a “2nd amendment solution”: > > 1. President declares he will not vacate his office as scheduled. The President who tries this will simply be escorted out of the White House upon the inauguration of the new President. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/71 "2016-06-28T19:13:40Z")
Ideally, yes. If not… Presidents have done this many times in other countries and not been escorted out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/72 "2016-06-28T19:17:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m just saying that such crimes are worthy of armed resistance, but obviously any armed resistance should have a chance of actually succeeding, or else it’s just wasting lives for no good reason. Today we live in a time where a minority the government would want to oppress would have many supporters among the majority, perhaps enough to threaten an armed response if the government went too far, which would hopefully have the effect of deterring the government from provoking said armed response. The militias out there and organized groups espousing the right to keep and bear arms would support minorities that are oppressed by the government? Without regard to race, sex, sexual preference or political affiliation? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/73 "2016-06-28T19:28:05Z")
True. I was citing examples where an armed resistance would be justified. Whether or not it would succeed is another question. Although it’s not as if armed minorities have not succeeded before. The Alawites control Syria, or at least they did before the civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/74 "2016-06-28T19:30:42Z")
According to [this link,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States#Security_against_tyranny) > [@](#): > > A January 2013 Rasmussen Reports poll indicated that 65 percent of Americans believe the purpose of the Second Amendment is to “ensure that people are able to protect themselves from tyranny.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/75 "2016-06-28T20:20:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > i can think of many examples of the need for a “2nd amendment solution”: > > 1. President declares he will not vacate his office as scheduled. > 2. Congress passes a law restricting our rights, President signs it, SCOTUS strikes it down, President and Congress say they will ignore the Supreme Court. Then the people have to enforce the Supreme Court ruling > 3. A state refuses to implement a law that they are not legally required to implement and the federal government responds with military force. > 4. A government at any level categorically refuses to protect the citizenry for political reasons, such as when southern states refused to prosecute or prevent lynchings. > 5. The government attempts any use of force against large numbers of citizens that is vastly out of proportion to the problem the government claims to be trying to solve. For example, if the government decided to start charging people who didn’t have health insurance with a felony. There’s a simple reason why most of the possibilities presented are too implausible to consider. _ **Both government and citizens are rational.** _ Yes, we have fresh evidence that a rogue President _might_ be elected. But his bizarre orders would be couintermanded by the bureaucracy or the military, before the general citizenry is needed to circumvent the madman. **Governments are rational.** A government, or rather the elite controlling the government since the whole topic makes little sense in the context of a of/by/for-the-people government, would need a very strong incentive (greed) to risk revolt. For example, consider (5) in the above list. First of all, it’s just silly, the penalty for no insurance is a tax penalty, not a felony :smack:. Second, what rational government would undertake motiveless measures that would antagonize citizens? **Citizens, as a group, are rational.** Oh sure, many peple are nuts. And mobs can turn sane people temporarily into nuts. But the thread is not about nuts shooting their weapons inappropriately — (or is it?) — it’s about armed general rebellion. To me, there are two scenarios which make sense. If there are some historic rebellions that don’t fit one of these categories, please point them out. (1) Revolts of the have-nots against the haves. Examples include the French and Russian Revolutions. Here the elite are at least rational enough to provoke the populace _for a reason_, unlike in the examples above — the rich elite want to preserve their huge wealth. (2) Revolts against a foreign power. Examples include several Revolutions in the Americas. Perhaps the citizens of the Land of Dixie will one day treat the political elites of the North as a foreign power and revolt against them. But this falls into the category of Civil War, I think, rather than “2nd Amendment Solution.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/76 "2016-06-28T21:50:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Go back and reread: Again, pure fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/77 "2016-06-28T22:32:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > One of the reasons given for the need for the 2nd Amendment is to give us common citizens the ability to take back our government from a tyrannical regime. Taking this at face value, it would seem that a majority of those who are armed would have to agree that such a nefarious point has been reached in our history for any uprising to have even the slightest possibility of success. Specifically, what would this “tyranny” consist of that might inspire such a mass reaction? What is/are the tipping point/points? > If you think that the 2nd Amendment is important for this reason, what (non-vague, please) reason would cause _you_ to take up arms against the government? If you look back at the Revolutionary War, before things got to that point, there was an adult, organized assemblage of people who were collaborating to find ways to deal with the problems with the UK, all up and down the seaboard. It wasn’t just one or two wackos in the Appalachians chugging down beer and crying that the Brits were secretly Lizard People, ruling the country with brain control devices. For me to take up arms, I would need to see something similar. A significant proportion of the population, including the boring, mature, respectable ones, would need to agree that the government had gone off the rails and they would need to be working on a number of solutions to both resolve the issue (sending lobbyists into the government, to discuss with the rulership) and preparing for a reasonable defense (like, recruiting generals from the army) in case it didn’t look like it was going to work. And, of course, I would need to agree with their position that the government had indeed become a non-democratic organization. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/78 "2016-06-29T01:16:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Again, pure fantasy. The question wasn’t the merits of the reasons, you asserted the OP’s question hadn’t produced any results at all. If you meant “reasons that **ElvisL1ves** agrees with”, you should have said so. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/79 "2016-06-29T01:59:52Z")
You can \*imagine \*anything you want to. Implicit in the OP question is that there be some link to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244/80 "2016-06-29T02:30:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You can \*imagine \*anything you want to. Implicit in the OP question is that there be some link to reality. The question was > [@](#): > > what would this “tyranny” consist of that might inspire such a mass reaction? What is/are the tipping point/points? > If you think that the 2nd Amendment is important for this reason, what (non-vague, please) reason would cause you to take up arms against the government? And two answers were given: if the government tried to ban firearms by fiat, and if people were denied the vote. The latter actually _has_ produced revolts in the past. I do not consider it implausible that people would take up arms against the government in those situations. I say nothing of the rightness or wrongness of their cause, or the chances of its success, just that it might well happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-2nd-amendment-solution-to-tyrannical-government/758244.md?page=5)