# The 3 decade US war on the middle east **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550 "2013-09-11T02:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/41 "2013-09-11T18:34:32Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Aw c’mon, Brussels has its charms - the Horta House… Just don’t touch the silicon nodules. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/42 "2013-09-11T18:37:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Just don’t touch the silicon nodules. And I’m looking at **you,** Kirk! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/43 "2013-09-11T18:39:51Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Oh, and a cite for the over one million people the US has killed in the Middle East would be nice. [Estimates do range that high.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/44 "2013-09-11T19:12:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What? The same paranoia that drove US to support number of coups (and failed attempts) in Latin America for the fear of expanding Communism is now driving US actions in Middle East. The only difference - instead of Communism the “fear” is of “political Islam”. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/45 "2013-09-11T20:44:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Estimates do range that high.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) I’ll rephrase is you prefer, a _reliable_ cite for such a figure. The [Lancet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties) survey that came up with a figure of 600,000 has been heavily criticized as wildly high, and the [ORB survey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties) is even worse. See for example [here](http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/exaggerated-orb/) from Iraq body count which has calculated deaths at 174,000. Further, these figures aren’t of people killed by the US, they are total deaths caused by both sides. It’s fairly absurd to say civilians killed by insurgents in Iraq were killed by the US, one may as well say everyone killed in South Vietnam from 1965-72 was killed by Americans, including ARVN soldiers and the mass executions in Hue by the NVA during the Tet offensive. There’s room for the argument that all of the deaths in Iraq are the responsibility of the US, but that’s not the same thing as saying they were all killed by the US. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/46 "2013-09-11T21:03:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The [Lancet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties) survey that came up with a figure of 600,000 has been heavily criticized as wildly high, \ By people who want to downplay the casualties. It used the standard methods of estimating casualties; only in the case of Iraq to those methods somehow magically become invalid. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/47 "2013-09-11T21:14:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > By people who want to downplay the casualties. It used the standard methods of estimating casualties; only in the case of Iraq to those methods somehow magically become invalid. There are plenty of criticisms of Lancet beyond the ‘people who want to downplay the casualties’ (and, afaik there IS no ‘standard methods of estimating casualties’, as different studies are looking at different things and make different basic assumptions), but it’s irrelevant in any case, since unless you are going to count every death (and secondary and tertiary death as Lancet does) as part of the US’s tally you still don’t get to a million people we have supposedly killed in the Middle East as the OP purports (without any sort of credible cite, unless you are going with loonwatch as credible). ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/48 "2013-09-11T23:12:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > By people who want to downplay the casualties. It used the standard methods of estimating casualties; only in the case of Iraq to those methods somehow magically become invalid. :rolleyes: Only on planet **Der Trihs** would the Iraq Body Count Project be considered “wanting to downplay casualties”. Here’s a nice analysis of the Lancet study by [them](http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/reality-checks/): > [@](#): > > A new study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that: > > 1. On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms; > > 2. Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment; > > 3. Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq; > > 4. Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued; > > 5. The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive “Shock and Awe” invasion and the major assaults on Falluja. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/49 "2013-09-11T23:58:40Z")
We’re arguing about just how many hundreds of thousands of adults and children the USA killed, and whether that could add up to a nice round million? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/50 "2013-09-12T00:09:07Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > We’re arguing about just how many hundreds of thousands of adults and children the USA killed, and whether that could add up to a nice round million? Actually, _you’re_ arguing that historical accuracy is irrelevant. It’s a sort of [British disease](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities). ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/51 "2013-09-12T00:19:07Z")
My starting point is the 500,000 excess deaths of children estimated by the UN due to the sanctions between GW 1 and GW 2, and famously acknowledged by M. Albright on national tv , [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtdw7Z04QQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtdw7Z04QQ) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/52 "2013-09-12T00:28:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see why describing Israel as an “ally” of the U.S. is a big deal. Sure, it’s not an alliance in the sense of the countries that ganged up on the Axis in WW2, but it’s a close economic and military relationship (though not nearly as close as U.S./U.K. or U.S./Canada), even if there are sometimes conflicting goals. Of course it is important. How else are you going to justify mass killing, and silence those who speak out about it, except with thousands of tiny nitpicks, burying the plain facts with pedantry? It is what happens in every thread about the middle east and Israel here. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/53 "2013-09-12T00:46:05Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Of course it is important. How else are you going to justify mass killing, and silence those who speak out about it, except with thousands of tiny nitpicks, burying the plain facts with pedantry? It is what happens in every thread about the middle east and Israel here. lol ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/54 "2013-09-12T02:54:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Of course it is important. How else are you going to justify mass killing, and silence those who speak out about it, except with thousands of tiny nitpicks, burying the plain facts with pedantry? It is what happens in every thread about the middle east and Israel here. Yeah, those fact thingies are sure hard to get around. Still feeling a bit hurt by the last attempted slam thread about Israel, huh? Well, buck up…I’m sure you’ll get another chance to do some drive by slams in this one while Der holds the fort with his usual anti-US rantage. Plus, as a bonus, you have this new guy to feed stellar cites from loonwatch and yet another Must See™ video from YouTube! Could be a good year! He made such a great impression with his vast knowledge on stealth technology after all, how could he not fit right in? ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550/55 "2013-09-12T03:30:49Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > My starting point is the 500,000 excess deaths of children estimated by the UN due to the sanctions between GW 1 and GW 2, and famously acknowledged by M. Albright on national tv , > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtdw7Z04QQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtdw7Z04QQ) So now the UN = the US? I’m sure Obama will be happy to hear that. The UNSC resolution 661 was adopted by a 13-0 vote (with two abstentions). So even if the US carried a larger share of the blame, you also have to dole some out to China, France, the UK, the USSR, Canada, the Ivory Coast, Columbia, Ethiopia, Finland, Malaysia, Romania, and Zaire. All of them voted for it. And then anyone of Iran, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait could have ignored it and opened their borders. Maybe they should get some blame too? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-3-decade-us-war-on-the-middle-east/668550.md?page=2)