# The 5 Titanic Sub Victims: what would they look like now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2023, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993 "2023-06-23T12:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/141 "2023-07-09T14:30:10Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > you’re only remembered for the rules you break.” As Mark Antony said: > I have come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. > The evil that men do lives after them; > The good is oft interrèd with their bones. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/142 "2023-07-09T15:30:48Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I heard a clip in which he states, “As General MacArthur said, you’re only remembered for the rules you break.” Should have aimed for “I shall return.”. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/143 "2023-07-09T16:11:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think the notion was they would hear minor failures happening and then do something to rectify the problems on the surface. > > But, as the video notes, failure is a cliff. There is no “slow” mode to this. When it fails, it fails completely and instantly. It seems the owner was cavalier about this and had no interest in spending money to ensure safety. In principle, **if** your initial factor of safety is high enough, **and** your microfailure monitoring is sensitive enough, **and** you actually react promptly and diligently to microfailures by repairing the structure to new condition or by condemning the structure if it’s irreparable to new condition, **then** you can achieve safety by monitoring. It appears Oceangate flunked all 3 parts of my syllogism. And therefore comprehensively and spectacularly flunked the conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/144 "2023-07-09T16:58:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > > I heard a clip in which he states, “As General MacArthur said, you’re only remembered for the rules you break.” > > Should have aimed for “I shall return.”. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/145 "2023-07-09T21:38:08Z")
Don’t forget, it must be _resublimated_ thiotimoline ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/146 "2023-07-09T23:24:57Z")
I always forget that part! ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/147 "2023-07-10T01:46:12Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In principle, **if** your initial factor of safety is high enough, **and** your microfailure monitoring is sensitive enough, **and** you actually react promptly and diligently to microfailures by repairing the structure to new condition or by condemning the structure if it’s irreparable to new condition, **then** you can achieve safety by monitoring. The problem with this as I see it is even if the RTM spotted issues how would they be pinpointed? They have already admitted there is no way to inspect carbon fiber this thick. And even then, so what? You can’t cut away a bunch of outer fibers and repair an internal flaw. That leaves condemning the structure. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/148 "2023-07-10T02:00:23Z")
'Zactly. It seems like they were planning to fail from the git-go. Whether they fully understood that or not. More likely, they actually expected the monitoring system to never report a problem. Then when it did they pulled the “normalization of deviance” maneuver just like NASA did with their O-rings. But with even less engineering rigor and discipline. “We got an alert and finished the dive and all was well. That _proves_ there’s more structural margin than we thought. We are _so-oo_ smart.” Lather rinse repeat for a few more dives while the margins get ever slimmer and totally unnoticed, or at least unappreciated. Then a brief wail of alarming, maybe even a bit of cascading crescendo-ing alarming as fibers snapped and voids coalesced, then the big crunch-smoosh before they knew what hit them. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/149 "2023-07-10T02:06:01Z")
I strongly suspect that if they ever got an alert, it was both the first and last time. Because the entire idea that failure wouldn’t rapidly progress from minimum detectable the catastrophic in the course of a single dive seems not to have crossed their mind, and yet I strongly suspect that is exactly what happened. No normalization of deviance. Just a substandard design, operating far to the left of the curve from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/150 "2023-07-10T02:26:37Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > They have already admitted there is no way to inspect carbon fiber this thick. Is this actually true? A very large industrial CT machine could do it. It would not be cheap. > [@mixdenny](#): > > That leaves condemning the structure. Even properly built subs are only rated for so many dives. The hull is essentially a wear item. In principle, if the structure could be modeled properly, they could figure out the point where it becomes unsafe to use further. The progression of defects would have been apparent if they’d been able to look closely. But we’ll probably never know what it was that did this one in. At least not until and unless someone decides to repeat the experiment. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Because the entire idea that failure wouldn’t rapidly progress from minimum detectable Their monitoring systems don’t inspire confidence. You might be able to detect snapping fibers acoustically, but that’s not going to detect delamination at all. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/151 "2023-07-10T02:58:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Is this actually true? A very large industrial CT machine could do it. It would not be cheap. Still probably not. The size of defects would likely be smaller than a voxel. Probably laminar in shape with an extent wider than quite a few voxels but of essentially zero thickness. So no actual change in radio-absorption. Just a failure of the inter fibre bonding. If there were actual voids in the structure big enough to image the structure would have already failed at depth. Ultrasound picks up the interface of a bond failure but is time consuming and in a wall five inches thick will likely have a lot of trouble seeing defects deep inside. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/152 "2023-07-10T03:05:48Z")
Hmm. The best CT scanners have a resolution of a few micrometers. I’d think that would be enough. Particularly if the assumption is that any defect will propagate from some starting point. Any voids or other inclusions will change shape if the defect starts to spread. You might not be able to track it past a certain point (delaminated layers might only be separated by a few nanometers), but you should be able to track the initial progression. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/153 "2023-07-10T03:11:05Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The best CT scanners have a resolution of a few micrometers But not of a size that could hold the Titan. There are some fabulous scanners for small samples. But the limitations imposed by source extent and sensor size make scanners something that scales in all aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/154 "2023-07-10T03:18:43Z")
Fair. That said, you don’t have to scan the whole thing all at once. You would need an emitter and receiver on the inside and outside of the hull, and some means (robot arm, etc.) of moving them to different parts of it. For example, something like this unit made for horses (!!!): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-RJZtGGedwU/maxresdefault.jpg "Equimagine: The World's First CT Scanner For Horses") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RJZtGGedwU) ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/155 "2023-07-10T04:00:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Is this actually true? A very large industrial CT machine could do it. It would not be cheap. Recall that the lead engineer resigned, or was fired, because Mr. Rush declined to perform non-destructive inspection of the hull. OceanGate then sued the engineer for good measure. There was also this business reported where the Titan allowable diving depth was derated for a time, and that the hull was either repaired or replaced, and then everything was copacetic again. Another reporter doubted any replacement of the hull took place during this time period, supply chain issues because of the lockdowns prevented securing the necessary carbon fiber or somesuch. So that leaves “repair”. How was it done, and who performed the repairs? I wouldn’t want my signature on something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/156 "2023-07-10T04:09:42Z")
Mainly I’m just wondering if “can’t be inspected” was a “stopped clock” moment for Rush. It’s bad either way: either there was a means of performing NDT and they lied/didn’t know about it, or they built something that couldn’t be inspected and just assumed it was safe. Or a little of each! ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/157 "2023-07-10T04:25:40Z")
NDT is $$$ - it’s pretty spendy, this brought up here before. That seems to be a recurring theme. ---
**Author:** ![WhyKickAMooCow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc29f/32.png) [@WhyKickAMooCow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyKickAMooCow)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/158 "2023-07-10T10:49:46Z")
Does anyone know what a ball-park cost for a carbon fibre hull would be? Or the sub overall? Given that they were getting $1M for each dive (4 “mission specialists” at $250K a pop) how many dives would it take before the sub was paid for? Or how many dives before replacing the hull would be economically viable? ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/159 "2023-07-10T11:45:05Z")
Thanks ! Saved me the trouble of looking it up !.. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993/160 "2023-07-10T15:12:39Z")
In case anyone’s interested, Dr. Chris Raynor has [weighed in](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfUcNPr2T8A&ab_channel=Dr.ChrisRaynor%7CNotYourEverydayOrtho) on what the victims would look like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-5-titanic-sub-victims-what-would-they-look-like-now/985993.md?page=9)