# The 7 Years war: Whay Was Gen. Montcalm Outfoxed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863 "2011-02-28T00:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/21 "2011-03-01T17:29:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I dunno about that. Certainly he displayed considerable tenacity and, in scaling the cliffs, innovation, daring and surprise - all solid military virtues; but if you study the season of war leading up to that, the impression you get is that he was well and truly foiled time and again by Montcalm - the assault on the Anse au Foulon was very much a last-ditch gamble that happened to pay off. I never understood at the time why he thought this obscure battle at Quebec was important for the course on European warfare, it seemed to me that it was a personal thing for Wolfe. Is there are good book on this campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/22 "2011-03-01T18:40:31Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I never understood at the time why he thought this obscure battle at Quebec was important for the course on European warfare, it seemed to me that it was a personal thing for Wolfe. Is there are good book on this campaign? Heh, I’d like a recommendation on that as well: I’ve read several books on the campaign, but none that really struck me as “this is the one”. As for the victory - it was certainly momentous in effect in that it spelled the end for the French empire in Canada, with all that implies for world history (though one could certainly argue that the defeat of the French Navy _elsewhere_ was more significant). The battle itself was unremarkable in terms of tactics, aside from Wolfe’s boldness in attempting a landing at such a difficult spot. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/23 "2011-03-02T03:07:56Z")
I thought he was outWolfed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/24 "2011-03-02T03:39:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I thought he was outWolfed. Exactly. Every one knows Wolf beats Monty. Monty beats Fox. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/25 "2011-03-06T02:51:04Z")
Found this and thought of this thread: [http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=233](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=233) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/26 "2011-03-06T20:29:55Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Found this and thought of this thread: > > [Hark, a vagrant: 233](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=233) Nice link, I like her art, reminds me of Sfarr. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/27 "2011-03-06T20:49:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, I’d like a recommendation on that as well: I’ve read several books on the campaign, but none that really struck me as “this is the one”. > > As for the victory - it was certainly momentous in effect in that it spelled the end for the French empire in Canada, with all that implies for world history . Not really. What mattered was the outcome of the war in Europe. Until then French possesions captured by the British (Canada, West Indies, India) were just bargaining chips. A French victory in the 7 years war would probably have resulted in Canada being returned to French control (except if some deal had been struck, like, say, control of all of North America to the UK in exchange for British possessions in India or whatnot). ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/28 "2011-03-06T20:59:08Z")
As a matter of fact, Canada had been conquered by the British or British privateers before 1760, notably around 1630 by the Kirke brothers. It had been returned to France after the war, and almost nobody remembers this fact today. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/29 "2011-03-06T22:24:38Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > BTW, I dont see how it would have been possible for the American Revolutionaries to have more French support. Earlier I can understand, but _more_ ? A strong French territory near the 'Statesw would have provided a great many oppornuties. Britain might have lost much more, to either party. France could have moved troops more easily and would have had a bigger dog in then fight. And while France’s support amounted tio a huge amount in cash, it was often badly wasted through incompetence on the French end, on America’s early ambassador Ben Franklin (brilliant, but he couldn’t administer a cigar stand). Both of those may well have worked out much differently. In any cse, I’m talking about “more actually getting to where it was needed.” ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/30 "2011-03-07T16:21:48Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > the British Parliament (though it was really just English and a little Welsh then) Oi! It also had members representing Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/31 "2011-03-07T16:42:36Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > As a matter of fact, Canada had been conquered by the British or British privateers before 1760, notably around 1630 by the Kirke brothers. It had been returned to France after the war, and almost nobody remembers this fact today. That’s largely because Charles I was an idiot, though, and returned it for a dowry. Also, Kirke was born in France, btw, which I think is a neat little factlet. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/32 "2011-03-07T19:05:24Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > A strong French territory near the 'Statesw would have provided a great many oppornuties. Britain might have lost much more, to either party. France could have moved troops more easily and would have had a bigger dog in then fight That’s assuming that France would side with the rebels. For one, France wouldn’t have the important motivation of revenge, having won the 7 years war, and besides, she might have been bothered by the bad example given by the rebels to the residents of Canada. Worst case scenario, even though unlikely : France supports the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/33 "2011-03-07T19:32:54Z")
It’s also assuming that the colonists wouldn’t be so afraid of the French that it would overcome any problems they were having with Britain. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863/34 "2011-03-07T21:41:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s also assuming that the colonists wouldn’t be so afraid of the French that it would overcome any problems they were having with Britain. Plus there would’ve been no discontent caused by a Proclamation Line, nor by concessions granted to Roman Catholics at the “expense” of British settlers. And the necessity of keeping the colonists on side for any future war might’ve restrained British enthusiasm for possibly sensible but certainly high-handed fiscal reforms. British failure to understand the fundamentally different nature of colonial society and culture would still have remained, of course… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-7-years-war-whay-was-gen-montcalm-outfoxed/572863.md?page=1)