# The 9/11 Scream Therapy Thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016 "2019-09-10T23:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/21 "2019-09-11T17:08:08Z")
Don’t forget what? The visceral hatred and fear that led two two wars, one a possibly justified response to bring down those who attacked us and those who harbored them, that was quickly neglected in favor the second, a war of opportunity that needed to be started quickly, while the first was still on going, while the fear and hatred was still fresh and so could justify attacking those who hadn’t attacked us but who superficially resembled them. Should we never forget the hatred that nearly two decades later has declared 1.8 billion people in the world evil terrorists, the enemy who must be eradicated. Should we never forget a fear that causes strangers with the wrong complexion to be viewed with wary mistrust, that causes us to build walls, perimeters and checkpoints to keep us safe. No, I think that has lasted enough and should well be forgotten. But there are somethings we are in danger of forgetting that we must remember. We shouldn’t forget what life was like on Spetember 10th 2001. A time when you could meet your family a the airport gate with a bottle of homemade apple cider. When you could walk up the steps of the capitol in Washington, when an unattended bag would simply be dumped in the lost and found without calling the police. We must never forget that we once lived in a world without constant fear if we are ever going to return. We should remember what how everyone came together in the weeks after September 11th before it all fell apart. A time when there were no Democrats or Republicans, just Americans and everyone was a patriot, not in a holier than thou “I’m a real American and your not”, sort of way, but with real love and reverence for our history, resilience and compassion for each other. A time when we were still the beacon of freedom, and our allies supported us with [open arms](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/we-stand-by-you/) and open hearts. Eventually this changed, as patriotism turned to Jingoism, and the international good will was squandered as “nous sommes tous Aericains” (we are all Americans) was replaced with freedom fries. I hope that someday we can return to this, but that hopefully it won’t take another national tragedy to bring it about, and that should it happen it won’t be squandered for a short term political gain that will leave us even more divided. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/22 "2019-09-11T17:14:55Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Whatever it may have taken to ride a jetliner into a building at 350 MPH, I don’t think “cowardice” is precisely the correct term. I agree: I think it’s the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what’s behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can’t or won’t oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one’s personal comeuppance _is_ correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/23 "2019-09-11T18:00:16Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I agree: I think it’s the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what’s behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can’t or won’t oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one’s personal comeuppance _is_ correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards. I think its also that they attacked civilians who couldn’t fight back, rather than attacking soldiers on a battle field. Although its pretty hard to come up with a definition of cowardice that includes the 9/11 attackers that doesn’t also include the brave men and women conducting the US air war against ground targets unable to shoot back. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/24 "2019-09-11T18:19:37Z")
via drone. Controlled from 9,000 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/25 "2019-09-11T18:24:37Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I agree: I think it’s the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what’s behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can’t or won’t oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one’s personal comeuppance _is_ correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards. Thank you for defining my use of the word in my OP. Concisely stated. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/26 "2019-09-11T20:02:59Z")
[I need some different scream therapy today](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21853890&postcount=296). And after this, and while we’re furiously trying to organize a response here in NC, that sanctimonious douchebag HurricaneDitka comes in and says, oh, no problem here, Speaker Moore says he did everything right, so you have nothing to complain about! Fuck both of those shitheads. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/27 "2019-09-11T23:25:00Z")
I lost two dear friends on 9/11, employees of Cantor Fitzgerald in the World Trade Center. Two beautiful souls who will never be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/28 "2019-09-11T23:42:55Z")
Ahh god, I’m sorry to hear that. From what I’ve read, that place was both business AND family. I’m from a suburban township outside of Philly, and more than one alumni of my high school died that day. Worked for Cantor Fitzgerald. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/29 "2019-09-12T00:26:48Z")
> [@tricoteuse](#): > > 100 years later WWI is pretty much forgotten. WWII is passing out of memory really fast and the last veteran will probably die during my lifetime. Korea is already the forgotten war, and Vietnam is remembered more for the anger and protests here in the USA and how the veterans are fucked up more than anything that happened in Vietnam. I sometimes wonder how the Vietnamese remember that war. Just once, I’d like to see Hollywood come out with a 'Nam movie telling the story from the POV of the Viet Cong, with Yanks appearing only as minor background characters. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/30 "2019-09-12T00:32:39Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > We shouldn’t forget what life was like on Spetember 10th 2001. Yes . . . That was a time when we (meaning not the Americans, but all humanity) had just gotten through an extraordinarily bloody century. The world of 1900 was a world of empires, with many subjects restive under colonial rule. And then came the rise of fanatical ideological creeds, fascism and communism, and much blood and treasure had to be expended putting them down. And then, no more empires, but a New World Order in which the principle of Westphalian Sovereignty was extended to non-Euro states. What a relief! But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don’t mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism – a thing much harder to put down, and which still might be around 100 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/31 "2019-09-12T01:40:43Z")
Just one? You’re sadly mistaken. But of course you are. You’re not here to stop the spread of ignorance. Your purpose is much more nefarious. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/32 "2019-09-12T01:56:19Z")
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed’s trial has been set for 11 January 2021. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/33 "2019-09-12T03:59:20Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Yes . . . That was a time when we (meaning not the Americans, but all humanity) had just gotten through an extraordinarily bloody century. The world of 1900 was a world of empires, with many subjects restive under colonial rule. And then came the rise of fanatical ideological creeds, fascism and communism, and much blood and treasure had to be expended putting them down. And then, no more empires, but a New World Order in which the principle of Westphalian Sovereignty was extended to non-Euro states. What a relief! > > But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don’t mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism – a thing much harder to put down, and which still might be around 100 years from now. 😕 Poes law? ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/34 "2019-09-12T04:08:34Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > 😕 > > Poes law? No parody intended. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/35 "2019-09-12T04:10:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Just one? You’re sadly mistaken. But of course you are. You’re not here to stop the spread of ignorance. Your purpose is much more nefarious. The only other fanatical creed I can think of that is now relevant is resurgent RW nationalism – and I don’t think it has yet reached the point where it can be considered really dangerous. Just very, very annoying. Trump is often called a Nazi, but I think he lacks the imagination. If he were a Nazi, his ambition would be to conquer Mexico, exterminate the Mexicans, and resettle the territory with white Americans. That was roughly what Hitler intended for Poland and Russia – see [Greater Germanic Reich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Germanic_Reich). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/36 "2019-09-12T04:12:02Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don’t mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism 😕 I don’t get what you mean by Salafi jihadism “predating” “modern Enlightenment civilization”. The Islamist jihadi movement as it exists today originated in the Soviet-Afghan War and the propaganda of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam beginning in 1979. Even if you try to equate Salafi jihadism with Wahhabist “Islamic fundamentalism”, that itself only dates back to the 18th century, so it’s not really “predating” the 18th-century Enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/37 "2019-09-12T04:17:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Every year I re-watch some of the raw footage from that day, because I don’t want to forget. Doing so reminds me of visceral emotions I felt that day. > > But I regret the mis-steps taken since then in dealing with both the aftermath and what lead to such an attack in the first place. Your first paragraph makes me cringe a little. I get wanting to remember and honor the victims and their families, but what you’re describing sounds like deliberately ginning up the fear and hatred many felt in the aftermath–feelings that, understandable though they may be, aren’t really conducive toward making anything good out of what happened. It kind of reminds me of the two minutes’ hate in _1984_. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/38 "2019-09-12T04:20:00Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > The only other fanatical creed I can think of that is now relevant is resurgent RW nationalism – and I don’t think it has yet reached the point where it can be considered really dangerous. I don’t know exactly what you mean by “relevant”, but I’d say that, for example, violent terroristic “Hindutva” movements in India and violent Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka count as “fanatical creeds” that are definitely “relevant” to the many people who suffer from them. Even a movement as decentralized and areligious as modern anti-vax ideology is arguably a “fanatical creed” that incontestably kills people. And that’s not even getting into the question of the violence that right-wing nationalism has already inflicted. I think you’re being naively optimistic if you imagine that Islamist jihadism is the **only** “dangerous fanatical creed” that’s “relevant” in today’s world. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/39 "2019-09-12T04:23:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 I don’t get what you mean by Salafi jihadism “predating” “modern Enlightenment civilization”. The Islamist jihadi movement as it exists today originated in the Soviet-Afghan War and the propaganda of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam beginning in 1979. > > Even if you try to equate Salafi jihadism with Wahhabist “Islamic fundamentalism”, that itself only dates back to the 18th century, so it’s not really “predating” the 18th-century Enlightenment. [Salafism does indeed have its roots in 18th-Century Wahhabism.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement) Perhaps not “predating” the Enlightenment, but certainly not a product of it, which communism and (by reaction) fascism were. For more on that, see [here](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/whichcivilisation). > [@](#): > > The most influential attempts to define the post-cold war world have been those of Francis Fukuyama in The End of History and the Last Man (1992) and Samuel P Huntington, in his essay “The Clash of Civilisations” (1993). Fukuyama famously argued that liberal democracy is the final stage of human political evolution. Huntington emphasises the persistence of pre-modern linguistic, cultural and religious divisions, like those between western and eastern Christendom and Confucian and Hindu Asia. > > Each of these schemas captures aspects of reality. But an alternative that deserves consideration is one that defines “civilisations” in terms, not of technological development or culture, but of world view. This approach gives us fewer civilisations than those listed by Huntington-but more than the single end-stage civilisation proposed by Fukuyama. > > From this perspective, the most important civilisational divide-one that seems even more important after the events of 11th September-may be the one between supernatural civilisations and secular civilisations. The divide is roughly, but not completely, correlated with the divide between pre-modern agrarian societies and industrial societies. Of the supernatural civilisations, the most significant have been the Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the Indic (Hinduism and Buddhism). The two major Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, conquered most of the world’s territory and people, including south Asia and the Americas. Only China and Japan, among the major non-western nations, escaped Muslim or Christian rule. Today Muslim theocracies like Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan and Saudi Arabia are the most extreme examples of societies based on supernatural religion. > > On the secular side of the civilisational divide, there have been three major traditions: humanism, rationalism and romanticism. These three traditions originated in Europe but now have adherents around the world. All three are essentially secular worldviews which do not need to invoke the authority of divine revelation or mystical gnosis (though some romantics are mystics or pantheists and some humanists have been religious believers). In respects other than their common secularism, the three traditions are fundamentally different from one another. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016/40 "2019-09-12T04:36:54Z")
In the above terms: Humanism = secular liberal democracy, as expressed in a line from the Dutch Republic through Locke and the modern U.S. and Western Europe. Rationalism = a line extending from Voltaire and the French Revolution through Communism. Romanticism = Rousseau, etc., through fascism – a counter-Enlightenment attitude. Supernaturalism = 19th-Century throne-and-altar reactionary conservatism, radical Islamism, and analogous movements in modern Christian societies (mostly Protestant) – neither pro- nor anti-Enlightenment, but a **pre** -Enlightenment attitude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-9-11-scream-therapy-thread/840016.md?page=3)