# The A-10 Thunderbolt/Warthog: Air Force: "We don't want it" Army: We'll take it **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483 "2014-03-24T23:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/241 "2016-03-12T20:33:44Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Aside from greater range/speed/agility, not being fooled by dumb noise jamming and being able to combine sensors/data links, what makes the sophisticated and modernized air defenses and fighters increasingly capable against 4th generation fighters? I don’t understand the question. > [@](#): > > Would an electronic attack version of the F-35 make sense, either used singly or in a trio? Every F-35 has a limited EA capability, but it’s probably inevitable that an F-35 will start carrying EW pods at some point. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/242 "2016-03-12T21:13:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t understand the question. Through what means are sophisticated air defenses and modernized fighters too much for a 4th generation fighter, even with Growler support? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/243 "2016-03-12T22:34:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > QE and Revenge class warships saw much more action in the Second World War when they were old, expendable units than in their prime in WW1 (Jutland and thats it). Something was wrong with the bloody things at Jutland. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/244 "2016-03-12T22:57:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t understand the question. > > Every F-35 has a limited EA capability, but it’s probably inevitable that an F-35 will start carrying EW pods at some point. Why would they send out an expensive stealth fighter with pods on it? We have a host of aircraft already fulfilling the role. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/245 "2016-03-12T23:39:48Z")
Because the F-35 will be around into the 2050s, and EA-18s will not. At some point, F-35s will be the cheap option. Even today, an F-35A costs roughly 10-15% more on a unit basis than what a new F-15 costs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/246 "2016-03-13T00:11:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because the F-35 will be around into the 2050s, and EA-18s will not. At some point, F-35s will be the cheap option. > > Even today, an F-35A costs roughly 10-15% more on a unit basis than what a new F-15 costs. There is nothing cheap about an F-35 and hanging a pod on it defeats the stealth technology. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/247 "2016-03-13T00:16:57Z")
An F-35A costs around $100 million, and a new F-15 is north of $85 million or so. Those are facts; whether you consider something cheap is of no interest to me. ETA: and F-35s are built to carry both internal and external stores, so even the designers knew from day one that one could choose stealthy/internal stores only, or not so stealthy/carry more stuff. You aren’t the first one to think of this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/248 "2016-03-13T00:29:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > An F-35A costs around $100 million, and a new F-15 is north of $85 million or so. Those are facts; whether you consider something cheap is of no interest to me. > > ETA: and F-35s are built to carry both internal and external stores, so even the designers knew from day one that one could choose stealthy/internal stores only, or not so stealthy/carry more stuff. You aren’t the first one to think of this. Why would you make a new F-15? As planes are retired they can re-purpose them as Wild Weasels and use the retired planes as a parts supply. I’m not seeing the need to buy extra F-35’s for single-purpose mission status. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/249 "2016-03-13T00:34:15Z")
Israel is currently negotiating an F-15 purchase to complement the F-35s they have bought. They are paying just a little less for the F-15s. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/250 "2016-03-13T02:39:28Z")
How different are these new puppies going to be? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/251 "2016-03-13T02:55:40Z")
Some media reports say that it will meet the most minimum standard of a stealth aircraft when it approaches a radar head-on. But any other aspect and it’s just a fourth generation fighter. In comparison, the F-117, F-22, and F-35 are probably ten to a hundred times stealthier than this new F-15. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/252 "2016-03-13T03:31:19Z")
Who knows what Elbit will come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/253 "2016-03-13T03:47:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Israel is currently negotiating an F-15 purchase to complement the F-35s they have bought. They are paying just a little less for the F-15s. Great. Why would WE buy new F-15’s? We already have them. It’s probably one of the best planes the US ever produced but again, we already have them. And if the F-35 is so great why would Israel not just buy all F-35’s at the slightly higher price? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/254 "2016-03-13T12:30:20Z")
I never said the US would buy F-15s again. The Israelis seem to want a mix of air superiority/strike fighters. The US is not eliminating air superiority fighters either. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/255 "2016-03-13T13:49:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I never said the US would buy F-15s again. > > The Israelis seem to want a mix of air superiority/strike fighters. The US is not eliminating air superiority fighters either. Given the price difference it doesn’t say much for the F-35. Using it in stealth form it only has a payload of 3,000 lbs and there’s a considerable speed/distance penalty for this feature. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/256 "2016-03-13T19:53:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In comparison, the F-117, F-22, and F-35 are probably ten to a hundred times stealthier than this new F-15. If the plane is 10 to 100 times stealthier, that means the radar’s coverage area would be 3.3 to 10 times smaller, right? I don’t know if you didn’t feel like answering my question\* or if you just got distracted by your best bud Magiver. If the latter, I’m still curious about what makes sophisticated air defenses too dangerous to use 4th generation fighters. - In which case, fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/257 "2016-03-13T20:01:09Z")
I’m not doing precise math in the 10-100 times remark. As far as 4th gen, there’s significant disadvantages. How many Growlers do you expect to have around for every strike package? What if the adversary has a LPI radar? What if they can target your EW with anti-radiation missiles that are longer range that your strike weapons? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/258 "2016-03-13T20:39:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not doing precise math in the 10-100 times remark. Ah, right, just orders of magnitude approximations. > [@Ravenman](#): > > What if the adversary has a LPI radar? What if they can target your EW with anti-radiation missiles that are longer range that your strike weapons? Right, those are good reasons to use 5th generation stealth planes over EW + 4th generation. I’ve always wondered how EW planes doing stand-in jamming can survive against enemies with anti-radiation missiles. Besides LPI and greater anti-radiation missile range, how else could the Russian and Chinese air defense give a harder time to 4th generation fighters than to 5th generation ones? Can fighters carry cruise missiles that have 1000km+ range? On the 85M$ F-15: What makes it cost so much? An AESA nose radar is around 3M$ so what else contributes to the cost increase? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/259 "2016-03-13T22:29:30Z")
We’re getting off track on this thread. It’s clear they’ve re-written future strategies around the F-35 as a multi-role aircraft replacing the F-16, A-10, F/A-18 and AV-8B. The A-10 is fairly unique aircraft in it’s design and was purpose built for it’s role. It was exceptionally good in that role. By default they’ve eliminated some of it’s tactical attributes. It’s easy to say the F-35 doesn’t have the capabilities of the A-10. It doesn’t. It’s hard to criticize the strategies they’ve planned around the loss of the A-10’s attributes without knowing the strategies. The fact is they’re 163 billion dollars over a budget designed to replace the airplanes listed above. That means there is 163 billion less dollars that could go into those programs going forward. If their revised battle plans don’t compensate for the loss of A-10 attributes then we got screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/260 "2016-03-13T23:51:00Z")
**Magiver** , don’t make me read that CAS doctrine book. It’s a waste in my mind, but not in yours and your excellent interlocutors… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483.md?page=14)