# The A-10 Thunderbolt/Warthog: Air Force: "We don't want it" Army: We'll take it **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483 "2014-03-24T23:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/341 "2018-09-05T23:34:36Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > No, this is not correct. A chain gun uses a short section of chain, with one end connected to the bolt of the gun. An external power source cycles the bolt via the chain. This reduces the likelihood of jams and allows the gun to cycle even if a round does not fire. A chain gun has a single-barrel, though I suppose you could have multiple barrels if you designed it that way. > > The A-10 uses a rotary, multi-barrel cannon. It is a completely different animal. Quote: Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post ??? A chain gun is a gun that is run off a chain, connected to a motor. Or it’s a brand name of a particular chain gun. A gun that is not a chain gun is powered by energy from expanding gasses. I’m not saying, I’m asking – I don’t know anything about this. ??? Me: That is correct. An electric motor drives the firing/feeding mechanism using a chain. Hence, chain gun. Above is the original question and my reply. **Please note that neither Melbourne nor I were referring to the A-10 in our posts.** I’m well aware that the A-10 has a gatling gun multiple barrel weapon - the GAU-8. The chain drive in the Apache and Bradley (and some C-130 gunships) moves a lot more than just the bolt; the feed system is more complex than the simple Wiki descriptions. I’ve had 36+ years dealing with ammo and explosives including hundreds of hours with the A-10 DU armor piercing rounds and the later HEI. Nearly as many hours with the Bradley and Apache chaingun ammo to include malfunctions of the weapons on multiple occasions. The chain drive DOES NOT reduce the likelihood of jams. Failure modes include multiple rounds in barrel resulting in catastrophic failure of barrel and damage to the aircraft :eek:; tearing up the cartridges cases and scattering the propellant throughout the mechanism. Don’t believe the “double ram prevention” blurb in the Wiki entry for the Apache. Jamming has been a recurring problem with the Apache 30mm weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/342 "2018-09-06T18:21:25Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > 😕 The quote I posted included both of those features, defining a chain gun as being externally powered, **and** using a loop of chain to utilize that power. I took issue with **ZonexandScout** ’s claim that a chain gun used a discontinuous length of chain, as opposed to the continuous loop of chain claimed by Wikipedia. I misunderstood I guess. Zonex etc also said a rotary barrel gun was a ‘completely different animal’. I thought you were responding to that and just snipping. I didn’t realize the part about discontinuous section of chain or continuous loop of chain was the point of contention. It’s continuous, of course. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/343 "2018-09-06T19:25:36Z")
I’m sorry I kinda started the chain gun feud, but guys…keep yer high falutin’, 21st century technological doodad airplane out of my Warthog thread. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/344 "2018-09-06T23:42:52Z")
> [@Calder](#): > > We just can’t afford to keep a single purpose aircraft in service when we have other aircraft that can do the job. The A-10 is useless against any opponent with any air defenses it only real bonus is it is cheaper to operate. But against low level threats the Super Tucanos are a MUCH cheaper and better option so there really isn’t any reason to keep them around. In order to retire the A-10 in favor of Super Tucanos, you’ve got to convince the Air Force to buy the Super Tucanos in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/345 "2018-09-07T02:25:33Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > It was really cool. A fully decked out cockpit was under a projected dome in a fairly large room. This was in the early 90s and I remember thinking the 3d rendered graphics weren’t quite up to par with what you’d see in a state of the art video game, but video games weren’t being projected on a huge domed screen! Most simulators professionals use have mediocre graphics. I guess they figure there is no need to spend money on that. All the effort is put in to making the simulation behave as real as is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/346 "2018-09-07T02:51:01Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > In order to retire the A-10 in favor of Super Tucanos, you’ve got to convince the Air Force to buy the Super Tucanos in the first place. The Air Force just released a draft request for proposals to start buying a light attack aircraft (with the Super Tucano as one option). The contract is tentatively expected to be awarded late next year. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/347 "2018-09-07T03:49:57Z")
While I support the idea of buying a light attack aircraft, the Air Force has been here before and resisted the idea: > [@Dave Majumdar](#): > > The Air Force had attempted to buy a light attack aircraft in 2008 under a previous iteration of the OA-X program, but ultimately that effort came to naught. The previous OA-X effort came at a time when the Air Force was fighting two counter-insurgency wars simultaneously in Iraq and Afghanistan, but political forces and bureaucratic inertia within the service carried the day. > **[Is the U.S. Air Force Ready for a New Light Attack Aircraft?](https://warisboring.com/is-the-u-s-air-force-ready-for-a-new-light-attack-aircraft/)** > > The U.S. Air Force is expected to hold demonstrations this summer to show off the capabilities of a new light attack aircraft the service might eventually purchase under a new OA-X program. The Air Force had attempted to buy a light attack aircraft... > [@Dave Majumdar](#): > > But at its core, the Air Force faces a dilemma between investing in expensive high-end multi-role combat aircraft or cheaper counter-insurgency — or COIN — machines that might not be useful outside of certain specific situations. > > “The Air Force is torn,” Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Teal Group aerospace consultancy told The National Interest. > > “On the one hand, it wants to be seen as helpful in the current Afghanistan and anti-ISIS conflicts, but on the other hand it doesn’t want to make a big investment in a fleet of planes that would have absolutely no relevance outside the current Afghanistan and anti-ISIS conflicts. COIN proponents tend to emphasize tactics over strategy; this is kind of the aeronautical equivalent of that tendency.” While prospects look better for OA-X to work this time, there’s people with power in the Air Force who see this as a drain from other missions and capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/348 "2018-09-07T11:14:25Z")
The difference this time is that acquiring a light attack aircraft likely relieves the political pressure against retiring the A-10, allowing it to start being retired. This allows the Air Force to start shaving down the dozen-plus A-10 squadrons to a fewer number of light attack squadrons over the next decade, thereby freeing up pilots and maintainers for high-end airplanes. That wasn’t the dynamic before 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/349 "2018-09-07T20:26:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The difference this time is that acquiring a light attack aircraft likely relieves the political pressure against retiring the A-10, allowing it to start being retired. This allows the Air Force to start shaving down the dozen-plus A-10 squadrons to a fewer number of light attack squadrons over the next decade, thereby freeing up pilots and maintainers for high-end airplanes. > > That wasn’t the dynamic before 2014. Interesting, in its own right and as an example of way of looking at military and technology changes historically. And, as noted, OP was 3/24/14. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/350 "2018-09-07T20:47:17Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Interesting, in its own right and as an example of way of looking at military and technology changes historically. > > And, as noted, OP was 3/24/14. Apparently, in military doctrine, time is a flat circle. 1968 called and wants to offer us their [SPADs](https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=144) and [Super Tweets](https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=148). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/351 "2018-09-08T15:59:56Z")
Wouldn’t the ideal CAS/COIN platform be: 1. an unmanned drone that can fly fast to the hot zone but also hover or do pylon turns once there, and 2. also heavily armored? The A-10’s main problem, IIRC, is that it has to do passes and gives the pilot little time to see what’s actually going on below. Such a drone would put no pilot lives at risk and also have the slow/hover advantages of the AH-64 or loitering of the AC-130. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/352 "2018-09-11T15:32:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Wouldn’t the ideal CAS/COIN platform be: > > 1. an unmanned drone that can fly fast to the hot zone but also hover or do pylon turns once there, and > > 2. also heavily armored? There are a bunch of engineering parameters that would define the ideal CAS/COIN platform, but many of them are in conflict with one another. Armor adds weight. Weight increases cost, fuel consumption (decreasing range and loiter time), and decreases speed, all three of which are detrimental to performing CAS missions. When it’s called for, you want an asset on station _right now._ Just look at the example of the B1-B. Would have been laughable to use it for CAS when it was first introduced. But after it was equipped over the years with targeting pods and better precision-guided munitions, some ground units actually prefer it now for CAS over any other plane, including the A-10. The B1-B gets to where its needed fast, has enough endurance to spend a lot of time loitering overhead, and has a _giant_ inventory of munitions. Sure, it’s expensive to operate (~$60k/hr) compared to a single drone, but it carries something like 50x the payload of a reaper. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/12/30/the-under-appreciated-workhorse-of-americas-air-wars-the-b-1-bomber/?utm\_term=.058dda306514](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/12/30/the-under-appreciated-workhorse-of-americas-air-wars-the-b-1-bomber/?utm_term=.058dda306514) > **[B-1B Lancer's Evolving Mission Includes More Close-Air Support](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/01/14/b-1b-lancers-evolving-mission-take-more-close-air-support.html)** > > Today, the long-range bomber is the leading U.S. close-air support mission aircraft in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/353 "2018-09-11T18:27:54Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > There are a bunch of engineering parameters that would define the ideal CAS/COIN platform, but many of them are in conflict with one another. Armor adds weight. Weight increases cost, fuel consumption (decreasing range and loiter time), and decreases speed, all three of which are detrimental to performing CAS missions. When it’s called for, you want an asset on station _right now._ > > Just look at the example of the B1-B. Would have been laughable to use it for CAS when it was first introduced. But after it was equipped over the years with targeting pods and better precision-guided munitions, some ground units actually prefer it now for CAS over any other plane, including the A-10. The B1-B gets to where its needed fast, has enough endurance to spend a lot of time loitering overhead, and has a _giant_ inventory of munitions. Sure, it’s expensive to operate (~$60k/hr) compared to a single drone, but it carries something like 50x the payload of a reaper… And, it has enough navigational and other sensors to know where it is, where you are, and where the bad guys are (hopefully). This is not something that most CAS platforms can do and is really important if there isn’t something like a forward air controller who has done all of those calculations already. That ridge that you as the ground commander think is grid 6546734502 may not actually be 6546734502, but rather …35406. That matters. Which leads me to the main objection to drones as ideal CAS platforms, that they don’t provide as good situational awareness as actually having a set of eyes and ears in a cockpit nearby. Though maybe not one in a cockpit doing 500+ kts, 100 feet AGL… The U.S. military has plenty of ways to kill a particular grid reference. And to do it with low risk to any human pilots. The trick is to do it to the right grid, to do it timely (so that the bad guys are still there to get killed) and to do it without hurting the non-combatant locals (bad) or your own people (worse). Timely is why many of the soldiers I’ve talked to and whose accounts I’ve read, far prefer things like indirect fire and Apaches or Kiowas, over the Air Force for fire support, because they could get them while the Taliban or other insurgents were still shooting at them. And they could be reasonably sure that they wouldn’t eat any stray ordnance. Not sure how ordnance-carrying drones would fit into that. Any discussion I’ve read, as a lowly civilian lay-person, indicates that the kill chain to use something like a Reaper is awfully long and slow for Joe to try and use for his troops in contact. Maybe with wider dispersion of ordnance-carrying drones through the Army, that’d be improved? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/354 "2018-09-20T12:58:41Z")
More cool A-10 swag: [http://www.historicaviation.com/Warthog-A-10-Thunderbolt-II/productinfo/0070017/](http://www.historicaviation.com/Warthog-A-10-Thunderbolt-II/productinfo/0070017/) [http://www.historicaviation.com/Shot-Glass-30mm-A-10-Blue/productinfo/702627/](http://www.historicaviation.com/Shot-Glass-30mm-A-10-Blue/productinfo/702627/) [http://www.historicaviation.com/A-10-Warthog-Tank-Buster-T-Shirt/productinfo/703942/](http://www.historicaviation.com/A-10-Warthog-Tank-Buster-T-Shirt/productinfo/703942/) [http://www.historicaviation.com/A-10-Thunderbolt-T-Shirt/productinfo/700297/](http://www.historicaviation.com/A-10-Thunderbolt-T-Shirt/productinfo/700297/) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/355 "2020-07-22T17:10:58Z")
Bumped. A-10s are mentioned in this article about the Flying Tigers’ enduring popularity in China: [Flying Tigers: These Americans mercenaries were the heroes of China during World War II | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/21/asia/world-war-2-flying-tigers-intl-hnk-scli/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/356 "2020-11-13T14:06:56Z")
At last, a mask for everyone in this thread! > **[A-10 Warthog Nose Art by twointoa](https://www.teepublic.com/mask/7331258-a-10-warthog-nose-art)** > > Here is Warthog's famous nose art above the GAU-8 Cannon combination design dedicated to all Warthog fans! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/357 "2020-11-21T19:55:38Z")
Or this: > **[A-10 Warthog Face Mask](https://www.wright-bros.com/a-10-warthog-face-mask.html)** > > Made in the USA, our A-10 Warthog Face Mask fits snugly but comfortably against the side of the face ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/358 "2020-11-21T20:16:49Z")
I thought at first it meant A-10 nose art of the Warthog wearing a Covid face mask, which would have been entertaining too. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/359 "2022-06-16T18:31:43Z")
Bumped. Cool black-and-green livery for Indiana Air National Guard A-10s last year: > **[A-10C Thunderbolt II 1/72 Die Cast Model](https://militaryissue.com/a-10c-thunderbolt-ii-1-72-die-cast-model-1/)** > > A-10C Thunderbolt II 1/72 Die Cast Model by Hobby Master HA1332 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483/360 "2022-06-16T19:01:16Z")
The bump sent me down the wiki rabbit hole. Question for those up on current US weapons systems: In the below photo, what are mounted on the 2 outer hard points under the port wing? I know what everything else is (AIM-9s, Hellfire, dumb bombs) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/An_A-10_from_the_81st_Fighter_Squadron_flies_over_central_Germany.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/An_A-10_from_the_81st_Fighter_Squadron_flies_over_central_Germany.jpg) ETA: OK, the #1 hardpoint has an ALQ 184 jammer pod on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-a-10-thunderbolt-warthog-air-force-we-dont-want-it-army-well-take-it/684483.md?page=19)