# The abortion debate: are the antis really making headway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040 "2009-10-25T08:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/41 "2009-10-27T07:10:24Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > Then too bad for them! Not all women who abort were raped, not even a majority I bet. So? A woman who wants an abortion should be given one regardless of her reasons. It’s her body, and a fetus is just a _ **thing** _. > [@BigBertha](#): > > Not all would be ‘forced into poverty’ either. Many would; or be driven farther into it. And they’d all suffer the pain and damage associated with pregnancy. > [@BigBertha](#): > > There are many couples wanting to adopt. No, there’s a shortage. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/42 "2009-10-27T07:12:41Z")
Having given birth, i was not aware of pain or damage. Is this is a common thing to be damaged by giving birth? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/43 "2009-10-27T07:22:13Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > Having given birth, i was not aware of pain or damage. Is this is a common thing to be damaged by giving birth? Um, yes. Bleeding, tears, scars, stretchmarks, weight gain, long term immune system problems, and so on. Not to mention nastier things in some cases. [Here’s a recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=535997)mentioning some unpleasant pregnancy/childbirth related problems. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/44 "2009-10-27T07:28:31Z")
I guess i was one of the few lucky ones to survive childbirth. Still, women have been getting pregnant since the beginning; you make it sound like no woman would ever want this horrible thing to happen to her. yet it happens, shit happens, cavities happen. We deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/45 "2009-10-27T07:31:00Z")
So fetus’ aren’t alive? Maybe we can extend that to husbands or humans we want gone. Or maybe the state should decide? I get the feeling you are not a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/46 "2009-10-27T07:39:02Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I guess i was one of the few lucky ones to survive childbirth. Still, women have been getting pregnant since the beginning; you make it sound like no woman would ever want this horrible thing to happen to her. yet it happens, shit happens, cavities happen. We deal with them. Or, you can’t “deal with it” and suffer permanent harm. And regardless, you are talking about _ **forcing** _ that upon women; not them taking the risk of such complications of their own free choice. > [@BigBertha](#): > > So fetus’ aren’t alive? Maybe we can extend that to husbands or humans we want gone. Or maybe the state should decide? I get the feeling you are not a libertarian. No, I’m not a libertarian; not that being one is a compliment. One of the more disgusting political groups around in my opinion. As for husbands and other people, they ARE people; a fetus is not. Your comparison is a false one. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/47 "2009-10-27T07:40:34Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > Then too bad for them! Not all women who abort were raped, not even a majority I bet. Not all would be ‘forced into poverty’ either. There are many couples wanting to adopt. Most couples only want healthy white infants, if they’re white. There are more infants than there are couples wanting to adopt. The problem is that the infants are not considered exactly perfect. This could be something like being mixed race, or nonwhite, or it could be something like having Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or born addicted to crack. Pregnancy is an expensive condition. Most poor women can’t afford to buy enough new clothes to get them through the pregnancy, let alone afford the medical care necessary. > [@BigBertha](#): > > Having given birth, i was not aware of pain or damage. Is this is a common thing to be damaged by giving birth? I’ve been damaged by being pregnant. I have partially detached retinas, among other things. While pregnant, I suffered from toxemia/pre-eclampsia, which was both painful and damaging. I was on partial bed rest from the 7th month on, and during my last month I was on complete bed rest. I don’t think that these conditions are exactly common, but they certainly aren’t rare. Giving birth was the most painful event of my life, and of course I wasn’t offered enough pain relief because I was told it was harmful for the baby. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/48 "2009-10-27T07:50:02Z")
Yet pregnanacy is a natural thing. Also, getting cancer is a lot more damaging and it happens randomly to people, they don’t have to have sex to get it. Where are all these women being forced to have sex? ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/49 "2009-10-27T07:51:40Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Giving birth was the most painful event of my life, and of course I wasn’t offered enough pain relief because I was told it was harmful for the baby. Yeah, mine too, but I was given an epidural, do these harm fetus? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/50 "2009-10-27T07:54:55Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > Yet pregnanacy is a natural thing. And? So are birth defects, cancer, gangrene and parasitic infestations. Natural and good aren’t the same thing. > [@BigBertha](#): > > Also, getting cancer is a lot more damaging and it happens randomly to people, they don’t have to have sex to get it. Where are all these women being forced to have sex? The problem isn’t sex; it’s people like you wanting to force women to go through pregnancy and birth against their will. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/51 "2009-10-27T08:01:23Z")
I impregnate women against their will, yep. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/52 "2009-10-27T08:06:06Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I impregnate women against their will, yep. Don’t be silly; I didn’t even imply that. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/53 "2009-10-27T11:27:13Z")
If you like statistics, then the one almost certainty we can say is that making abortion illegal doesn’t decrease the rate of abortion. Abortion rates are almost identical in Africa (where it is mostly unsafe and illegal) and Europe (where it is mostly safe and legal), and are actually lowest of all in Northern and Western Europe. So, what would happen if abortion was made illegal? Women who have abortions now would still have them, but they would either travel to a different jurisdiction, obtain an illegal (and probably unsafe) abortion or obtain a legal abortion because of extenuating circumstances (rape, severe foetal abnormality incompatible with life, life of mother exception). 70,000 women die worldwide every year from unsafe abortion- if death as a real risk of having sex doesn’t put people off it, I doubt jail-time would. Lots of interesting information at the Guttmacher Institute. > **[Unintended Pregnancy and Abortion Worldwide](https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide)** > **[United States](https://www.guttmacher.org/regions/northern-america/united-states)** > > The Guttmacher Institute’s work in the United States includes research on unintended and adolescent pregnancy, contraception and use of publicly funded family planning services, abortion incidence and funding, HIV and other STIs, and teens’ and... [http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/restrictions.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/restrictions.html) [http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/providers.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/providers.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/54 "2009-10-27T15:08:31Z")
> [@SmartAlx](#): > > In fact 50% of Christians are female. Do you think THEY support the oppression of their gender? Well, that’s a big fat “yes”. Women can actually be quite good at oppressing other women. In any case, what the net gain from banning abortion in the U.S.? Surely there’s a cost/benefit analysis waiting in the wings. Pro: more babies; more money to Canadian and Mexican abortion clinics. Con: more oppression; more injuries from improvised abortions; more law-enforcement resources tied up in a futile prohibition effort; more money to criminal organizations who will add mifepristone to their existing illegal drug shipments; fewer health-care resources for women since doctors who provide abortions typically provide other OB/GYN services and throwing them in jail deprives society of those services; more newborns being killed or abandoned; more women abandoning their educations; more woen trapped in cycles of poverty; more women being killed by boyfriends who definitely don’t want children; more crime 15 years down the road when the unwanted babies start to grow up… I recognize the moral satisfaction of saying “abortion should be banned”. I just wish pro-lifers would take two minutes to think about what that would mean. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/55 "2009-10-27T15:41:58Z")
If it was illegal here, would there be anything other than the time and expense keeping women from going to Canada or Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/56 "2009-10-27T19:42:44Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If states were left to decide this issue, it would be like many others. New York and California would have fully legal abortions for all, and Mississippi and Georgia could punish abortion by death with most other states having some middle ground. That middle ground would reflect where most Americans feel on the subject while women in Alabama could buy a greyhound bus ticket to a state where it was legal, preachers in Georgia could decry the evil going on in the liberal enclaves of America, while northern elites could continue to look down on the south as being backward. You left out the funnest part… > [@](#): > > Then an entire generation could focus on a different issue and our Supreme Court could go back to being selected based on qualifications instead of the beliefs on this one issue. The hell you say! Sure, abortion wouldn’t dominate the politics of the SC, but in most states, _every legislative session_ and _every state-level election_ would be a rancorous abortion debate. Little else would get done and there’d be more divisiveness at the local level. At least that’s what I would predict. RvW has kept a lid on the abortion debate, relatively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/57 "2009-10-27T22:02:19Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If it was illegal here, would there be anything other than the time and expense keeping women from going to Canada or Mexico? Guards at the border forcing women to undergo pregnancy tests? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/58 "2009-10-27T22:45:11Z")
> [@SmartAlx](#): > > It sounds to me more that you have a chip on your shoulder against Christians. I see you are new here. Welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/59 "2009-10-27T23:45:11Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Most couples only want healthy white infants, if they’re white. Could I have a cite on this, please? Statistics, from a valid and unbiased source - not anecdotes, actual evidence. > [@](#): > > Most poor women can’t afford to buy enough new clothes to get them through the pregnancy, let alone afford the medical care necessary. Likewise - a cite, please, that most poor pregnant women are not eligible for Medicaid. Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/60 "2009-10-28T05:34:10Z")
Some stats on interracial adoption, albeit from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_adoption) (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Based on the Adoption and Foster Care Analysis and Reporting System (AFCARS), the fiscal year of 1998 showed that approximately **64% of children waiting in foster care are of minority background** ; 32% are White. Out of all foster children waiting for adoption 51% are Black, 11% are Hispanic, 1% are American Indian, 1% are Asian/Pacific Islander, and 5% are unknown/unable to determine. Data from the 1995 National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG) show that \*\*adoption of an unrelated child was most common among childless White women \*\*and those with higher levels of income and education. The most recent estimate of interracial adoption was performed in 1987 by the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and it found that **1% of white women adopt black children, 5% of white women adopt children of other races** , and 2% of women of other races adopt white children (estimates include foreign-born) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040.md?page=4)