# The abortion debate: are the antis really making headway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040 "2009-10-25T08:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/61 "2009-10-28T07:05:38Z")
Am I some specially priviledged woman? I bought no new clothes while pregnant. I simply wore large sweatshirts and capris. And every pregnant woman I’ve known has bought a few clothes and also many poor ones are given clothes by their friends. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/62 "2009-10-28T12:02:34Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Some stats on interracial adoption, albeit from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_adoption) (bolding mine) Do you have figures that are more recent? The reason I ask is that when we adopted, there was a law in our state that white parents could not adopt a child of another race if a same-race applicant was available. IOW, it was not because white couples would not adopt a non-white child, but because the laws put an impediment in their path. Similarly with your figures above - it is not possible to determine that the reason a child is awaiting adoption is because of reluctance by adoptive parents to adopt outside their race. I would also be interested in figures that show that most poor pregnant women cannot afford clothing, and are not eligible for Medicaid, as was claimed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/63 "2009-10-28T14:42:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I would also be interested in figures that show that most poor pregnant women cannot afford clothing, and are not eligible for Medicaid, as was claimed. How poor? [Here](http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?ind=456&cat=10) is a chart of eligibility and coverage by state. 11 states limit coverage to women 19-years-old and over. 32 states cover abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest. > [@](#): > > States must obtain waivers to continue Medicaid coverage of family planning services for women who would otherwise lose Medicaid coverage postpartum. All states are required to fund pregnancy-related care, including family planning services, for 60 days postpartum to women with incomes up to at least 133% of the federal poverty level. Other states have granted coverage solely on the basis of income to individuals not previously covered under Medicaid. The 2009 poverty level for single people is about $10-13,000. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/64 "2009-10-28T14:50:13Z")
Of course, poverty is not the only requirement for Medicaid. Pregnancy is one of the categories that is supposed to get you funding (assuming you don’t have any other assets, a partner in your life, know how and where to fill out the forms to qualify), which is why that chart also has several notes citing exceptions and extensions for coverage that ends post-partum. Anyway, hopefully someone who has worked more within this particular system can come in and clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/65 "2009-10-28T14:51:00Z")
I’d hazard a guess that if you’re _really_ poor and have no particular impetus to escape poverty, it doesn’t really matter how many children you have since the state will help out. However, if you’re _working_ poor, holding down two minimum-wage jobs with the goal of eventually getting something better, the state _won’t_ help you (or at least not to the same degree) and having an extra child can mess up your plans quite badly. There’s not much we can do for someone content in poverty. I’d rather not impede someone who has a chance to escape it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/66 "2009-10-28T15:34:51Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > How poor? [Here](http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?ind=456&cat=10) is a chart of eligibility and coverage by state. 11 states limit coverage to women 19-years-old and over. 32 states cover abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest. We weren’t talking about contraception or abortion. We were talking about **Lynn Bodoni** ’s statement that most pregnant poor women cannot afford the medical care to get them thru pregnancy. That statement is, obviously, false, since - > [@](#): > > All states offer Medicaid or a program similar to Medicaid to help pregnant women receive adequate prenatal and postpartum care. [Cite](http://www.americanpregnancy.org/planningandpreparing/medicaid.html). Even women who aren’t poor are covered - > [@](#): > > In the “categorically needy” group, this will cover pregnant women whose income level is at or below 133% of the Federal Poverty level. So, the statement that most pregnant poor women cannot afford the prenatal care necessary to complete a pregnancy is false, and has been disproven. The part about how they cannot afford clothing is, I suspect, equally false, but no attempt at proof has been made. Would anyone care to have a crack at that one, or can we take it as granted that it was also false? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/67 "2009-10-28T15:50:27Z")
133% of the poverty level is still only $13,300 in many states. If a woman makes $7 an hour working 40 hours a week, every week of the year, she’s already overqualified. And if the company she works for is small enough (or her employers aren’t particularly ethical), she has no right to maternity leave, paid or unpaid. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/68 "2009-10-28T16:20:29Z")
> [@SmartAlx](#): > > Actually, the reaction would be a change in our attitudes towards sex. Women wouldn’t be so quick to go to bed with their boyfriends. > > And that’s a fact. [QUOTE=SmartAlx] Abortion is not supposed to be used as a regular method of birth control. Even planned parenthood says that. But it is precisely how abortion is being used, especially over large population groups. [/quote] Uh, sure. I’m absolutely certain you can provide reliable cites for these claims. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/69 "2009-10-28T16:44:06Z")
I’m prepared to concede that abortion is indeed being used as birth control. My response to such a claim is “well, duh.” ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/70 "2009-10-28T19:01:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m prepared to concede that abortion is indeed being used as birth control. > > My response to such a claim is “well, duh.” I doubt most women have sex thinking, “I don’t need to be on the pill or use condoms, because if I do get pregnant, I’ll just get an abortion”. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/71 "2009-10-28T19:23:18Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I doubt most women have sex thinking, “I don’t need to be on the pill or use condoms, because if I do get pregnant, I’ll just get an abortion”. Assuredly not, but you’re just splitting hairs. Abortion is simply a different type of birth control - abortive rather than preventative. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/72 "2009-10-28T23:17:04Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I doubt most women have sex thinking, “I don’t need to be on the pill or use condoms, because if I do get pregnant, I’ll just get an abortion”. So? That the option exists means one _doesn’t_ have to dwell on it when more interesting concerns are at hand. Similarly, the existence of car insurance means I don’t have to perform a cost/benefit analysis every time I go for a drive. If something undesired happens, I’ll have access to remedies. Life’s has enough annoyances already. Why resurrect ones that have pretty much been resolved? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/73 "2009-10-28T23:44:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m prepared to concede that abortion is indeed being used as birth control. > > My response to such a claim is “well, duh.” And “So what?” ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/74 "2009-10-29T09:39:35Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > yet it happens, shit happens, **cavities happen**. We deal with them. [QUOTE=BigBertha] Where are all these women being forced to have sex? [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) And cavities can be prevented with good oral hygiene and avoidance of sugar. That doesn’t mean we should outlaw dentists. It wouldn’t make people brush more; people would be pulling their rotten teeth out over the sink with pliers. More specifically to the OP. . . I think many people say they are Pro-Life because they do not have (and have never had) to face the reality of illegal abortion. My mom is of the Abortion Unrestricted generation. She’s 60, and at the very tail end of women who had to have illegal abortions. By the time she had hers, people weren’t dying the way her mother’s generation had, back when peritonitis was a death sentence. But people did die, and it was illegal and very shady. She tells me I can’t imagine what that particular fear feels like-- wanting so badly _not_ to have a child you’re willing to put your life in the hands of the quack your roommate’s friend’s cousin heard would do it for $200 (after you’ve tried a couple of homemade concoctions that made you ill). Nobody from my generation has ever faced that. It’s just not part of our reality. I think being pro-life comes easier when you’re just working with abstracts. And when you can chose to be pro-life and not have it forced upon you. This relates more to birth control that abortion, but access to abortion is a requisite for our general cultural norm where two generations of women were raised with the expectation that they would bear only the children they want. I think this is mostly ingrained in all of us-- voluntary motherhood is just normal. Grasping how it would feel without that is hard. I read a book called _Motherhood in Bondage_, a collection of letters women sent to Margaret Sanger begging for help stemming the unending tide of children. These are not resigned, flustered mothers who need to learn to embrace God’s bounty. They are exhausted and utterly, wretchedly miserable. I cried reading it. I think it’s the closest I came to understanding the fear my mother talks about. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SmartAlx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/75 "2009-10-29T09:51:24Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > I think this is mostly ingrained in all of us-- voluntary motherhood is just normal. Grasping how it would feel without that is hard. Completely agree. > [@](#): > > I read a book called Motherhood in Bondage, a collection of letters women sent to Margaret Sanger begging for help stemming the unending tide of children. I will have to check out the book. Was a lot of the emotional trauma about the neverending tide of children? Never knowing when a pregnancy would occur? Never knowing when it all would end? I’m curious. In general how many children did the mothers have before they started to feel the emotional trauma? Do you think if these women had started to take birth control at 3 children, say they had sterilization surgery, and they happened to have had a forth child would they have been able to cope? I can understand how difficult it must be to have 6,7, 10 children, or more. I know very large families were not uncommon. One set of my own Grandparents had a lot of children and they all lived in a fairly small house so I can understand how difficult it must have been. Do you think that birth control would have been enough for the women in this book? Or do you think that abortion is the only thing that could have helped them? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/76 "2009-10-29T11:11:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We weren’t talking about contraception or abortion. We were talking about **Lynn Bodoni** ’s statement that most pregnant poor women cannot afford the medical care to get them thru pregnancy. That statement is, obviously, false, since - [Cite](http://www.americanpregnancy.org/planningandpreparing/medicaid.html). > > Even women who aren’t poor are covered - > > So, the statement that most pregnant poor women cannot afford the prenatal care necessary to complete a pregnancy is false, and has been disproven. The part about how they cannot afford clothing is, I suspect, equally false, but no attempt at proof has been made. Would anyone care to have a crack at that one, or can we take it as granted that it was also false? > > Regards, > Shodan From your source: > [@](#): > > Even people with the lowest incomes may not qualify for Medicaid if they do not fall into one of the Medicaid groups. Just because a program is theoretically available doesn’t mean that it is available in practice. When a program runs out of money before it runs out of fiscal year, guess what happens to new claimants? And that assumes that the pregnant women even know about the program. Also, finding a doctor that will accept a new patient, especially a pregnant patient, and especially a pregnant patient who’s on public assistance…well, sometimes there are no OBs in the area, period, let alone OBs who are accepting new patients on public assistance. I can’t speak for most women, but even though I was eligible for public aid, I never went on it. I could not bear the notion of using food stamps or other entitlement programs. When I got pregnant, I couldn’t wear my old clothes, as I had been rather slim and proud of my figure. I used to wear close-fitting clothing, such as jeans, which didn’t allow me to gain so much as five pounds, let alone allow my belly to expand. I had to scrounge for clothes at thrift shops, and my parents bought me a couple of outfits, which was humiliating. It’s not that I’m a clotheshorse, but my husband and I were very poor at that time. I had three or four outfits that I could wear during my pregnancy, when all was said and done. None of them were at all nice. We were just barely making it when I got pregnant. He was an enlisted man in the Air Force, and I couldn’t work in Spain (where he was stationed), and once I got pregnant, and went back to the States (and the Air Force wasn’t about to fly me back until my husband had a change of station) I was too sick to work, even if anyone had been willing to hire a pregnant woman. I don’t appreciate being called a liar, especially by someone who doesn’t really know all of my circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/77 "2009-10-29T13:59:17Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > From your source: > > Just because a program is theoretically available doesn’t mean that it is available in practice. When a program runs out of money before it runs out of fiscal year, guess what happens to new claimants? And that assumes that the pregnant women even know about the program. Also, finding a doctor that will accept a new patient, especially a pregnant patient, and especially a pregnant patient who’s on public assistance…well, sometimes there are no OBs in the area, period, let alone OBs who are accepting new patients on public assistance. I can’t speak for most women, but even though I was eligible for public aid, I never went on it. I could not bear the notion of using food stamps or other entitlement programs. > > When I got pregnant, I couldn’t wear my old clothes, as I had been rather slim and proud of my figure. I used to wear close-fitting clothing, such as jeans, which didn’t allow me to gain so much as five pounds, let alone allow my belly to expand. I had to scrounge for clothes at thrift shops, and my parents bought me a couple of outfits, which was humiliating. It’s not that I’m a clotheshorse, but my husband and I were very poor at that time. I had three or four outfits that I could wear during my pregnancy, when all was said and done. None of them were at all nice. We were just barely making it when I got pregnant. He was an enlisted man in the Air Force, and I couldn’t work in Spain (where he was stationed), and once I got pregnant, and went back to the States (and the Air Force wasn’t about to fly me back until my husband had a change of station) I was too sick to work, even if anyone had been willing to hire a pregnant woman. Thanks for your response. Do you have a cite that shows that most poor pregnant women cannot afford the medical care to get them thru pregnancy, or that most poor pregnant women cannot afford clothing? Statistics, from a valid and unbiased source, as is appropriate for GD. Not anecdotes. > [@](#): > > I don’t appreciate being called a liar, especially by someone who doesn’t really know all of my circumstances. If you think someone has called you a liar, you should probably report the post. Since I have not done so, I would request that you refrain from making false accusations. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chris\_Luongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Chris\_Luongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chris_Luongo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/78 "2009-10-29T16:12:23Z")
> [@SmartAlx](#): > > Actually, the reaction would be a change in our attitudes towards sex. Women wouldn’t be so quick to go to bed with their boyfriends. > > And that’s a fact. I’m not much into entering into heated debates, but that statement doesn’t appear to be so clearly true. I just got back from my third trip to Brazil a couple of weeks ago. Abortion is illegal in there, and from my experience with the people I’ve met there, the majority of them appear to be pro-life. Cite: > **[Abortion in Brazil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Brazil)** > > Abortion is generally illegal in Brazil. Penalties range from one to three years of imprisonment for the recipient of the abortion, and one to four years of imprisonment for the doctor or any other person who performs the abortion on someone else. In three specific situations in Brazil, induced abortion is not punishable by law: in cases of risk to the pregnant woman’s life; when the pregnancy is the result of rape; and if the fetus is anencephalic. In these cases, the Brazilian government Brazi... I certainly didn’t see many young women abstaining from sex, and I did see plenty of young, poor, unmarried mothers. P.S. Please don’t interpret my statements as a position for or against abortion, or whether or not it should be made illegal. It’s simply an observation. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SmartAlx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlx)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/79 "2009-10-31T13:22:08Z")
Well I did create a [poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=537384) and as far as dopers are concerned at least 30% say they would be more carfeful about sex if abortion were made illegal. And that is inside a fairly liberal population sample. If I included the whole population of the US I’m positive that number would rise even higher. I’d say even 30% a pretty significant number and if you don’t think 30% of the population wouldn’t have an impact on the overall attitudes towards sex, then you aren’t really thinking through this very clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040/80 "2009-10-31T13:27:07Z")
> [@SmartAlx](#): > > Well I did create a [poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=537384) and as far as dopers are concerned at least 30% say they would be more carfeful about sex if abortion were made illegal. And that is inside a fairly liberal population sample. If I included the whole population of the US I’m positive that number would rise even higher. I’d say even 30% a pretty significant number and if you don’t think 30% of the population wouldn’t have an impact on the overall attitudes towards sex, then you aren’t really thinking through this very clearly. I would argue there’s a considerable difference between a question asked dryly on a message board and a decision made in the heat of the moment. Good intentions pave, well, you get the idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-abortion-debate-are-the-antis-really-making-headway/515040.md?page=5)