The abortion issue is a losing issue for Republicans

Sure, and your point was also that this meant it will hurt Republicans.

My point is to flesh that out. First of all, most elections aren’t national, so many Republicans won’t be hurt, but rather benefit, from opposing abortion. Second, the question goes beyond outlawing abortion, or even “most” abortions. Nationally, most people support outlawing late-term abortions. And this is an issue that is actually in play, since the government has the power to ban them under Roe. It came up in 2003 with the “partial-birth” controversy.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t confuse the national support for keeping abortion legal with the more radical positions some on this board have expressed.

This was the point I was going to raise, and yet I don’t see a following post that even acknowledges that the post is in this thread.

So.. IF it’s true that the same number (or more) of abortions per capita happen regardless of what restrictions are placed upon the procedure, then the only thing I see those restrictions doing is increasing the health risk to the woman undergoing the procedure.

Is there already a thread refuting these findings, or is everyone ignoring them because it renders every argument for restricting abortions as a method of decreasing the number of abortions occurring to be completely bogus?

<run on>I know that the WHO study can’t be perfect since we’re talking about illegal procedures in many places and folks just aren’t going to volunteer numbers, but does that necessarily follow that they are over estimating the number that occur because they have some pro-choice axe to grind, or are they under estimating their numbers because they know that those who want to restrict access to abortion are going to do their best to poke holes in the study?</run on>

Not necessarily. It just demonstrates that abortion restrictions are not perfectly correlated to reduced abortions: the function that reduces the number of abortions in developed countries could just as likely be another product of the emancipation of women in the developed country (public access to contraceptives, higher expenditure on education, etc.).

I was thinking more about the title of the thread.

I think Republicans (and a few Democrats) in many parts of the country are going to win on abortion, because pro-life people are stronger in some districts than others, and because the issue isn’t as simple as “most people do not want to outlaw most abortions.”

This is ridiculous. Biological independence, as in physiologically capable of driving and maintaining one’s own respiration and metabolism independent of another organism’s physiology. When already born people lose this ability we put them on life support which provides a mechanical mechanism to carry out these basic functions of sustaining life (respiration and metabolism). However, absent consciousness awareness (aka brain death) the plug is pulled eventually.

A new born infant is using it’s own physiology to drive it’s metabolism and respiration, not the physiology of another organism. In the cases of a premature infant mechanical support is provided to assist the infant’s own (underdeveloped) physiology in maintaining metabolism and respiration. A newborn infant is no longer attached to the circulatory system of another organism. A newborn infant is no longer leeching nutrients from the flesh of another organism. A newborn infant is no longer excreting it’s waste into the circulatory system of another organism, etc. A newborn infant whose physiology is not developed enough to maintain respiration and metabolism on it’s own will eventually expire regardless of how much nourishment and warmth is provided for it. A fetus becomes viable when it is capable of carrying out these basic life sustaining biological functions independent of the physiology of another organism.

This just goes to show why abortion can not be decided outside of women and their physicians. The party of Todd Aiken does not even understand the basic biology involved in reproduction, pregnancy and infancy.

Let’s not get sidetracked. The topic of this thread is not the justice or merits of abortion or abortion-rights, but, rather, the relevance/value/disvalue to the GOP of abortion as an electoral issue.

I think the abortion topic illustrates how ignorant the GOP and their supporters are when it comes to basic science, biology and fetal viability. As evidenced in this very thread with people equating infanticide with abortion. Or equating the physical biological hardship of pregnancy with the feeding and caring for a newborn infant. Appealing to “feelings” is just demagoguery.

Fetal personhood has failed everywhere, even in conservative Mississippi, yet the Republican party includes fetal personhood on it’s platform. Most people support abortion in the case of rape and incest, yet the Republican party platform includes no exception for rape and incest. Clearly, it is a losing issue.

TRAP laws, mandatory ultrasounds and waiting periods and other ridiculous measures like banning sex selective abortions or prosecuting abortions as “tampering with evidence” need more coverage and follow-up. I think NARAL and other abortion rights groups have not challenged many of the recent influx of abortion restrictions in some states because of the current ideological make-up of SCOTUS. At the same time, I highly doubt SCOTUS could every legally uphold fetal personhood, so in some ways I wish it could be ruled on by SCOTUS to lay this nonsense to rest.

In Virginia, Republican legislators took the counsel of a lobbyist rather than take the counsel of actual medical professionals when it came to setting policy.

*"The Medical Society of Virginia and the Virginia American College of Obstetricians testified in favor of repealing the ultrasound bill, echoing Northam’s concerns.

Victoria Cobb, president of the Family Foundation of Virginia and a top anti-abortion lobbyist, also testified at the hearing. She accused abortion providers of “hiding the picture” of the ultrasound from women in order to prevent them from changing their minds and to increase profits, according to The American Independent’s Reilly Moore."*

In Texaswomen going over the border for abortion in Mexico where it is illegal, but apparently easier than obtaining an abortion in Texas.

“In 2011, Texas lawmakers made deep cuts in financing for family planning for low-income women. And a new law that requires a woman seeking an abortion to receive a sonogram 24 hours ahead of the procedure — that is, to make at least two visits to the abortion clinic — may be prompting some to seek alternate abortion methods.”

Propagating myths like abortion as birth control, elective third trimester abortions, the for-profit abortion industry, informed consent, etc, make the GOP look stupid and truly reveals their demagoguery.

WhyNot posed a moral defence of post-partum euthanasia. As far as I’m aware, she’s not a Republican. I am not a Republican. lance is not a Republican. When people support abortion past the point of viability, the comparison is bound to come up. In fact, one of the most prominent moral defences of abortion involves an analogy ofkilling of a grown adult. Appealing to emotions is fallacious. Diminishing pain and increasing pleasure is the foundation of consequentialist and utilitarian ethics.

You are right, it is not all Republicans, there are plenty moderate pro-choice Republicans (and even moderate pro-life Democrats) alienated by the GOP’s stance on abortion. Murdouck, Akin and soon Iowa’s Steve Kyle are just more examples of how the Republican stance on abortion is a losing issue for them. Even more ‘mainstream’ Republicans want Steve Kyleout of the running for his Akin-like views on abortion. He will win the Republican primary, but lose in the general election because his views on abortion are too extreme.

As for Lance’s position, I have become wise tohis debate tactics.

But, I will play one last time. So, for the span of this post I will grant a fetus morally and ethically equivalent to myself – affording a fetus every right and privilege I have, but not one iota more:

May I consume my mother’s flesh against her will?

May I inject my mother with mind altering hormones against her will?

May I excrete my biological wastes into my mother’s bloodstream against her will?

May I leech calcium from my mother’s bones to strengthen my own against her will?

May I implant myself into my mother’s body against her will?

May I re-arrange my mother’s internal organs against her will?

Do I have any claim on or authority over my mother’s biological processes?

NO.

Not even if my life hangs in the balance. Her consent is required. Nobody has the rights fetal personhood proponents are trying to bestow on a fertilized egg. They need to make the case for granting fetuses super-human rights. Even a one minute old newborn infant’s ‘right to life’ could not justify forcing the mother to donate a section of her liver in order for the baby to live. Why is her consent required after birth, but not before?

If I committed a negligent act causing another person bodily harm and they required an organ/tissue donation to live, I could not be mandated to provide that donation (or be put in an organ donation chain if I was not a match).

We allow thousands of born people on transplant wait lists to die every year rather than mandate organ/tissue donation without consent. Fetal supremacy is not acceptable. Equality is the upper limit. You must first give a right to the born before you grant it to the unborn. If a person’s ‘right to life’ trumps bodily autonomy, then EVERY LIFE justifies violation, not just fetal life. EVERY person may be violated, not just pregnant women. Even a corpse’s body autonomy is afforded more respect than some afford pregnant women, as a corpse’s organs and tissues can only be donated by consent. They are dead, they aren’t even using their organs and tissues! Yet, we can not use their body parts - even if someone’s life hangs in the balance - their consent is required.

I am quite familiar with Thompson’s argument in A Defense of Abortion, but her argument hinges on enacting a ‘Minimally Decent Samaritan Law’ which applies to ALL people – which would entail mandating organ/tissue/body donations of ALL people, not just pregnant women. Let’s keep in mind Thompson wrote her essay in 1971 and is based on medical technology of the time.

TL;DR

Framing the abortion debate in third trimester abortions is intellectually dishonest. No healthy pregnant woman aborts a healthy fetus in the third trimester, it is illegaloutside of extenuating tragic circumstances. A pregnant woman just doesn’t wake up all of sudden in her 24th week and decides she sick of the puffy ankles and wants out. Women who have suffered pregnancy into the third trimester are generally invested in having a baby at the end of it. Forcing women to carry a non-viable pregnancies to term with unnecessary government interference during a time of great personal tragedy is bound to turn the most ardent ‘pro-lifers’ against the GOP platform. Particularly when none of their claims stand up against scientific scrutiny and completely flies in the face of real world data and experience.

Wonderful post, EverwonderWhy. Thank you so so much.

My only issue with the subject in the title of this thread is that I think this abortion issue is one of two that allows the Republican party to hold on to the “Christian Right,” which is still a sizable voting block. The other one, gay rights, is moving much more quickly to no longer being a viable issue.

As a former member of the Christian Right, I would be glad if they lose that block entirely, but I’m not sure that’s a winning strategy for them. I’m not sure they can appeal to enough people to abate that loss.

Wow. Best response to this debate I’ve ever read. Great job, EverwonderWhy. Wow.

It is a fantastic post, and one that I agree with 100%…however, it simply crumbles on the argument of what “consent” is. Anti-abortionists state that your mother *gave *her consent when she spread her legs for your father, and that once that consent is given, it is irrevocable.

It’s a hard one to argue against. The best I’ve got is that a living organ donor is allowed to withdraw consent at any time, even while on the operating table. That no other person is given *irrevocable *consent to the use of our organs, only conditional and revocable consent until the organs leave our body. It may be legally consistent, but it feels like weaksauce.

ETA: And it leads, for me, to a conundrum of why fathers are legally bound, irrevocably, to support their offspring at the moment of coitus, but not mothers. Which, of course, is a whole other thread…

But, some forms of pain and pleasure are emotional.

Let’s not get sidetracked. The topic of this thread is not the justice or merits of abortion or abortion-rights, but, rather, the relevance/value/disvalue to the GOP of abortion as an electoral issue.

Tremendous. Wow, I wish I had thought to put it like this.

Ah, but her consent is revocable, because her consent is required after birth. Which is why fetal personhood fails, because no born person has the ‘right’ to lay claim to their mother’s body/tissue/organs the way anti-abortionists argue a fetus has a ‘right’ to by virtue of personhood. Anti-choicers can try to argue that consenting sex is a blanket consent to pregnancy (however invalid), but then they are not arguing for fetal personhood rights, they are arguing for fetal supremacy rights -* because no born person has the rights they are trying to bestow on a fertilized egg.*

Oh, come on! I totally mentioned how the establishment GOP is trying to run Steve King out of the Iowa senate race because of his Akin-like stance on abortion. When Kings stance is totally aligned with the GOP platform, so even the GOP establishment is recognizing their stance on abortion is a losing issue.

No, but you may if you say, “Mother, may I?”

True. These are two separate issues, although some people are trying to treat them as if they are one. There are plenty of people who think abortions are wrong - but don’t want the government to step in and make abortions a criminal act.

So the Republican Party will screw up if it thinks promising to outlaw abortion will attract the votes of every anti-abortion voter.

The specific form of the fallacy is “If I like x, x must be true” (often overlaps with the appeal to ridicule or appeal to consequences of a belief). Thus “It makes me feel good to imagine blastocysts have thoughts from the moment of conception, therefore they must have thoughts”. That would be a fallacious argument. However, it is not fallacious to say “if we want to base our policy on the principle of reducing harm and increasing pleasure, then this transvaginal ultrasound bill will be inimical to those goals”.