# The ACLU is getting heat for this article **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472 "2022-06-19T23:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/1 "2022-06-19T23:27:01Z")
> **[Four Myths About Trans Athletes, Debunked | News & Commentary | American...](https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked)** > > Upholding trans athletes' rights requires rooting out the inaccurate beliefs underlying harmful policies sweeping through state legislatures. Personally, I think the ACLU is (as usual) right. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/2 "2022-06-20T00:09:06Z")
Claiming that trans girls don’t have a physical advantage is utter bullshit. However, I have no idea how to handle that problem. I don’t have a problem with a trans girl athlete and I don’t believe that teen boys claiming to be trans to gain an advantage is a legitimate worry. California State Track Meet [results.](https://www.rtspt.com/events/cif/2022/compiled.pdf) Girls 1600 4:37-5:00 Boys 1600 4:11-4:19 Girls 3200 10:07-11:49 Boys 8:57-9:58 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/3 "2022-06-20T00:14:11Z")
How many of those were trans? _In Connecticut, where cisgender girl runners have tried to block Andraya from participating in the sport she loves, the very same cis girls who have claimed that trans athletes have an “unfair” advantage have consistently performed as well as or better than transgender competitors._ So, while overall males may indeed have an advantage _“A person’s genetic make-up and internal and external reproductive anatomy are [not useful indicators](https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/hecox-v-little-safer-declaration) of athletic performance,”according to Dr. Joshua D. Safer. “For a trans woman athlete who meets [NCAA standards](https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf), “there is no inherent reason why her physiological characteristics related to athletic performance should be treated differently from the physiological characteristics of a non-transgender woman.”_ So, while overall _males_ seem to have an advantage, there is nothing that has shown _trans_ athletes have such an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/4 "2022-06-20T00:23:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Personally, I think the ACLU is (as usual) right. Thoughts? It’s not a particularly persuasive article. The author writes that the myth of trans athletes reinforces stereotypes that women are weak and in need of protection. But doesn’t the fact that we segregate sports based on sex do the very same? The author also writes that a trangender athlete who meets NCAA standards has no advantage and I’m willing to accept that as true for the purposes of this discussion. But I have heard people advocate that requiring athletes to have undergone hormone treatment for at least a year before participating is unfair. In truth, I used to be on the fence regarding trans athletes. Well, let’s say what we all really mean, trans girl athlete because nobody is worried about trans boys in the boys lockeroom or on the basketball courts. But quite frankly, whatever concerns I have about whether or not trans athletes have an unfair advantage pales in comparision to what others wish to do in order to prevent trans girls from competing. Isn’t there legislation pending in one state giving authorities the ability to perform an exterior and/or internal exam of a girl’s genitals to determine her eligibility to participate in girl’s sports? That’s just barbaric and a far more harmful than trans girls participating in sports could possibly be. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/5 "2022-06-20T00:36:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, while overall _males_ seem to have an advantage, there is nothing that has shown _trans_ athletes have such an advantage. I don’t think there’s enough transgender athletes at this point to make a final determination. The simple fact is that a mediocre athlete on a boys team would dominate on a girls team (depending on the sport). Maybe there will never be enough trans women athletes to make a difference in team sports. Individual sports like track are far different. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/6 "2022-06-20T00:44:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s not a particularly persuasive article. I agree. It think putting sports participation at the forefront of trans rights is badly mistaken. The very _definition_ of being trans is that someone has an identity that is not in accord with the physiology that they were born with. And the fight is to get people to accept that. To then turn around and insist that a trans person’s physiology is no different from a cis person’s physiology just seems to _contradict_ what we’re trying to get everyone to understand and accept about gender identity. If a trans woman blows away the competition in a sports event, it just seems to me to _invite_ the bigots to protest that this proves she’s “really a man”. Sports are about testing the limits of physiology, or aspects of mental fortitude that are universally human, they are not about affirming gender identity. I don’t know that there are any easy answers, but if you are going to have a restricted category it should be based on consistent scientifically established criteria, and it should probably not be called “women”. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/7 "2022-06-20T00:59:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It think putting sports participation at the forefront of trans rights is badly mistaken. Ah, well now I think you’re on to something. Is it really trans rights activists who have placed sports at the forefront, or is it anti-trans activists who see it as a useful wedge issue, to which the trans rights community may then feel obliged to respond? I suspect the latter is what really got us here. There are people out there who don’t even think trans people exist, and they are doing their damndest to bring the conversation around to sports because they see that as their best chance to win people over and be seen as “reasonable” rather than as transphobes. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/8 "2022-06-20T01:04:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The simple fact is that a mediocre athlete on a boys team would dominate on a girls team (depending on the sport). I speak largely from ignorance, but isn’t a trans female more than just a male who chooses to present as a female? Isn’t there usually some hormone medication involved? If so, then I would imagine that this adds quite a significant variable to the male/female athlete comparison. ETA: Take a male athlete. Then give him medication that blocks his testosterone. He’s going to perform worse, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/9 "2022-06-20T01:07:13Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > There are people out there who don’t even think trans people exist, and they are doing their damndest to bring the conversation around to sports because they see that as their best chance to win people over and be seen as “reasonable” rather than as transphobes. Then I think something like this ACLU article that conflates the nuanced issue of sports participation with what’s really _important_ and non-negotiable about trans rights is just helping them do this. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/10 "2022-06-20T01:53:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Then I think something like this ACLU article that conflates the nuanced issue of sports participation with what’s really _important_ and non-negotiable about trans rights is just helping them do this. …we are so far beyond the time for “nuanced discussion of the issue of sports participation” that it isn’t even funny any more. The conversation has shifted. We’ve gone from “nuanced discussion” six months ago to transition should “be illegal for doctors to do this to anyone of any age” as the benchmark now. > The Matt Walsh documentary has been so heavily promoted in social media spaces that advertisements have been popping up for it on the Youtube channels of transgender activists. The ACLU article is about as milquetoast as you can get. It isn’t _harmful_ to the cause. And today the world governing body for swimming effectively voted to ban transgender people from participating in women’s swimming competitions. "Transgender women must show that “they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later.” > **[The world swimming body effectively bans transgender women from women's events](https://www.npr.org/2022/06/19/1106173020/swimming-bans-transgender-women)** > > The decision was the latest salvo in an ongoing fight over whether trans athletes should compete according to their gender identity or their sex assigned at birth. This is the reality of what making participation in sports a “negotiable” position really means. This is the reality of why this is _important_ thing to be talking about. They want to make transition illegal. There is official state government advice out there, right now, that doctors should not promote “social transition” (meaning not using prefered pronouns) . It won’t be long before that gets codified in law. Its creeping authoritarianism. They are pushing back bit by bit. It took less than a year for the CRT panic to turn into cities actively banning books and principals getting fired. This isn’t going to stop at sports. Transgender activist Katy Montgomerie said this today: > [@](#): > > Whether you like it or not, the fight against transphobia is one of the key fights against fascism of our generation. You’re living through it right now. Sitting and watching and doing nothing is an action that favours the fascists and they will not stop [https://twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1538620399944081408](https://twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1538620399944081408) This is where we are at right now. With one side still thinking that we still have time for a pleasant debate, while the other is actively considering genocide. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/11 "2022-06-20T03:18:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Claiming that trans girls don’t have a physical advantage is utter bullshit. And there’s the problem. What proof do you have of this? Because there is no actual proof of this, as long as hormone levels are equalized. Every single time I’ve seen someone get upset about a particular trans athlete, I’ve found that there are cis women who did better than them at some point. Why would that be if trans women were physically the same as men, who clearly dominate as your statistics say? The difference would be plain as say, like it is for men vs. women. No, there is just this assumption about trans women that just seems like “common sense,” and is being exploited by anti-trans factions. And, given that, I see no reason that trans women should pull back and give those anti-trans factions an inch, allowing them to take the proverbial mile. They are right to insist that there is no evidence backing this up and to force their opponents to do more than just rely on bias and assumption. And, yes, that’s also my response to @Riemann’s claim that trans activists err in fighting this. There is only room for nuance when the facts allow it. Those who push discrimination should be the ones who have to prove it is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/12 "2022-06-20T03:32:17Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Ah, well now I think you’re on to something. Is it really trans rights activists who have placed sports at the forefront, or is it anti-trans activists who see it as a useful wedge issue, to which the trans rights community may then feel obliged to respond? I suspect the latter is what really got us here. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its creeping authoritarianism. They are pushing back bit by bit. It took less than a year for the CRT panic to turn into cities actively banning books and principals getting fired. > > This isn’t going to stop at sports. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/13 "2022-06-20T09:45:03Z")
The ACLU is now past its prime. It no longer supports those “whose values are contrary to our values.” That is to say it no longer protects unpopular speech. As Ira Glasser pointed out, “They just produced a couple of years ago new guidelines for their lawyers to use when deciding what free speech cases to take,” the ex-ACLU man explained. “This is a requirement now for the national ACLU employers, that before they take a case defending someone’s free speech they have to make sure that the speech doesn’t offend or threaten other civil liberties values." Key people in the ACLU now want to ban books. Chase Strangio, the American Civil Liberties Union’s deputy director for transgender justice, tweeted, “Stopping the circulation of this book and these ideas is 100% a hill I will die on.” So anyway, the ACLU is no longer a protector of unpopular ideas and the right to say them. It is a defender of politically correct ideas and wants to suppress other ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/14 "2022-06-20T10:19:12Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > It is a defender of politically correct ideas and wants to suppress other ideas. …there is nothing “politically correct” about protecting the rights of transgender people. And protecting the rights of transgender people doesn’t involve the suppression of other ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/15 "2022-06-20T10:21:22Z")
There is little about civil liberates in banning books. The modern ACLU would not defend the rights Illinois Nazis to march in the streets. Some ideas they deem worthy of free speech. Some ideas they have decided to suppress. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/16 "2022-06-20T10:24:18Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > The modern ACLU would not defend the rights Illinois Nazis to march in the streets. Good. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/17 "2022-06-20T10:26:43Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > There is little about civil liberates in banning books. …the personal opinion on a now-deleted-tweet do not represent the policy position of a completely separate organization. > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > The modern ACLU would not defend the rights Illinois Nazis to march in the streets. > [@ACLU](#): > > “As human rights, these rights extend to all, even to the most repugnant speakers — including white supremacists — and pursuant to ACLU policy, we will continue our longstanding practice of representing such groups in appropriate circumstances to prevent unlawful government censorship of speech.” > > … > > One thing we rejected was any abandonment defending those with whom we disagree. Yet a small number of disgruntled voices continue to charge that we have done just that. But the record demonstrates otherwise. Since 2017, we have supported the constitutional rights of the NRA, the Koch-funded Americans for Prosperity Foundation, anti-Semitic protesters, Trump supporters, Trump himself, Republican challengers to a Democratic gerrymander, right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos, and conservative and anti-gay student groups, to name but a few. We have filed multiple Supreme Court briefs with the Cato Institute, the American Conservative Union, and the Institute for Justice. > **[Defending Speech We Hate | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-we-hate)** > > The record demonstrates the ACLU’s unwavering commitment to First Amendment rights for all. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/18 "2022-06-20T10:30:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Good. How will you feel when your speech is unpopular? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/19 "2022-06-20T10:42:12Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > How will you feel when your speech is unpopular? Bold of you to assume it already isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/20 "2022-06-20T10:49:37Z")
Nice sidestep. There is now a broad movement of political correctness that chooses not to engage with those with whom it disagrees, but rather chooses to tell them to shut up. I would think this position is now very mainstream, if not a majority view. I think you are advocating the popular position, and are claiming your opinion is suppressed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472.md?page=2)