# The ACLU is getting heat for this article **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472 "2022-06-19T23:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/121 "2022-06-22T02:15:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you or do you not believe the entire point in advocating for trans rights is to protect trans people? Yes, and to that end I do not believe that trans people and trans allies should be advocating a position on competitive sports that is guaranteed to fail, because it is both irrational and inconsistent with everything else that we are saying about trans rights and what it means to be trans. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/122 "2022-06-22T02:17:34Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I do not believe that trans people and trans allies should be advocating a position on sports that is guaranteed to fail …what position have trans people and trans allies advocated for on sports that is guaranteed to fail? (And I’m not talking internet debate here: I’m talking about in the real world.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/123 "2022-06-22T02:40:11Z")
Separate but equal? Sounds familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/124 "2022-06-22T06:42:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A transwoman shows up for sportsball and field tryouts. Do you let them? From context I’m assuming that “sportsball” is just a USA term for sport in general, correct me if I’m wrong. What sport are we talking about? What level of sport are we talking about? What category are they wanting to play in? What do the regulations allow? What level of physical transition has that person undergone? I think the desire to balance inclusion, fairness and safety is admirable but there is no simple answer that works for all cases and questions like the ones above need to be addressed. There are many cases in which the answer would be “yes”, but there are also cases in which the answer is “no” My question to you, Would your answer be “yes” regardless of how those questions above are answered? i.e. There should never be a point at which someone is told “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/125 "2022-06-22T07:03:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is no big problem that needs fixing here that individual sporting bodies shouldn’t be able to handle. I agree, let the sporting bodies make the assessment on how best to balance inclusion, fairness and safety. That calculus will not be easy and it will vary from sport to sport. (as we are seeing) This seems not to have been acceptable in the eyes of the ACLU. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what position have trans people and trans allies advocated for on sports that is guaranteed to fail? That there should be no restrictions for transwomen playing sport in the “women” restricted category, but of course that supposes that the sporting bodies must therefore come only to one acceptable conclusion. This thread attracted comments because the article that kicked it off does not seem to allow for, or would accept, any restrictions on transpeople at all. Such a position is impossible to square with the continued existence of a division based on physical properties. Had the article made the point that you did above (and that I agree with) i.e. let the sporting bodies decide, then there would have been no debate at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/126 "2022-06-22T13:18:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The entire point in advocating for trans rights is that gender identity implies _absolutely nothing_ about the physical body, and vice versa. The enemies of trans rights are saying that the physical body is everything, and **they** are the driving force behind this anti-trans-sports argument, not to protect women’s sport, but as a lever to reverse advancement of trans rights. Your intelligent, nuanced, arguments about the impact of trans athletes on women’s sport isn’t where the debate is going. The debate is whether trans people get to exist as themselves, whether they can get the medical treatments they should have, whether they get treated as the people they are. That debate isn’t settled, by a long shot. Women’s athletics is a way to demonize trans people, and paint them as an existential danger to women. There’s nothing nuanced about it, it’s a “transwomen are men” cudgel. Your argument isn’t wrong, but it provides aid and comfort to those who are very very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/127 "2022-06-22T13:30:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Your argument isn’t wrong, but it provides aid and comfort to those who are very very wrong. Obviously I don’t agree. I think the line taken on participation in competitive sports apparent in the ACLU article provides aid and comfort to the enemy. I think it undermines the process of educating people about trans rights to be taking a position on sports that is completely inconsistent with the message that we are otherwise trying to get across about what gender identity means and who trans people are. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/128 "2022-06-22T13:36:04Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The entire point in advocating for trans rights is that gender identity implies _absolutely nothing_ about the physical body, and vice versa. Even just _in_ the trans community, there isn’t agreement on this. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/129 "2022-06-22T13:43:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > there isn’t agreement on this. So what physical characteristics would imply that someone cannot have a female gender identity? I would say none. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/130 "2022-06-22T14:14:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So what physical characteristics would imply that someone cannot have a female gender identity? That’s _not_ the same thing as gender identity _implying_ something about the physical body. You reversed the implication there. In the case of some trans people, they believe that gender dysphoria is a necessary condition to be truly transgender (usually the same people advocate for a strong gender binary). So that particular view of gender identity definitely implies _something_ about the physical body - that one that matches the identity is desirable, and one that doesn’t, isn’t. That a trans person who hasn’t transitioned/is in the process of doing so is not fully trans yet. Or more to the point, that a trans person not interested in physically transitioning at all is not really trans. That view’s far from common in the trans people I know well (one, out of around a dozen), but it is _a_ view, and not one I, a cis person, am going to just dismiss out of hand. So it is perfectly possible to advocate for some form of trans rights _and_ believe doing so is implying something about the physical body. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/131 "2022-06-22T14:27:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s _not_ the same thing as gender identity _implying_ something about the physical body. You reversed the implication there. Er, what? Yes I reversed the implication, because it’s logically the exact same thing. You agree that there are no physical characteristics that imply someone cannot have a female gender identity. Yet you are simultaneously claiming that a female gender identity implies that someone must have certain physical characteristics? > [@MrDibble](#): > > In the case of some trans people, they believe that gender dysphoria is a necessary condition to be truly transgender Gender dysphoria is not a _physical_ characteristic. And a trans woman who has a desire to transition, but has not yet done so, is no less a woman. I’m sorry, but vague assertions that “some trans people hold this view” are not good enough. If anyone else claimed this, you would (correctly) call them a transphobe. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/132 "2022-06-22T14:30:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That really doesn’t solve anything. As @Novelty_Bobble says, “men” is really equivalent to an open category already. Well, in many cases there actually are rules that women can’t play in the men’s division. It varies from league to league and the wording isn’t always all that thought out, but you’d have to change the rules in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/133 "2022-06-22T15:14:02Z")
The more I reread what you wrote, I’m just… I really don’t know what to say. Bigots: Trans women are not women. Trans rights advocates: Trans women are women. > [@MrDibble](#): > > That a trans person who hasn’t transitioned/is in the process of doing so is not fully trans yet… > > That view’s far from common in the trans people I know well (one, out of around a dozen), but it is _a_ view, and not one I, a cis person, am going to just dismiss out of hand. Mr Dibble: Some trans people think some trans women are not “fully” women, and I’m not going to tell them they are wrong. I mean, I’m prepared to say they are wrong. Excluding non-transitioned trans women from the restricted class in sport is one thing. But the position you are describing (which I realize you do not personally endorse, just not “dismiss out of hand”) seems to be indistinguishable from saying that they are men. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/134 "2022-06-22T15:29:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > From context I’m assuming that “sportsball” is just a USA term for sport in general, correct me if I’m wrong. No it is not. It’s a derisive term used by people who don’t know anything about sports. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/135 "2022-06-22T16:29:24Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s a derisive term used by people who don’t know anything about sports. I would quibble a bit and say it is used by people who think organized sports (particularly pro and college) are at best a waste time. They may or may not know much about them. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/136 "2022-06-22T16:34:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Your argument isn’t wrong, but it provides aid and comfort to those who are very very wrong Then the intelluctually honest thing to do is to agree and support those whose arguments are right and challenge those who extrapolate incorrectly from that argument. Sorry to Godwinise, but it is possible to honestly argue that the post-1918 settlement in Germany was probably unfair and still abhor the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/137 "2022-06-22T16:57:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But the position you are describing (which I realize you do not personally endorse, just not “dismiss out of hand”) seems to be indistinguishable from saying that they are men. No. The trans people I’ve spoken with are willing to acknowledge that (in the case of a non-dysphoric what you and I would call a trans woman) they’re not necessarily _men_, just … not trans women. It might matter that we do have effectively historically a sort of third gender here, a _little_ equivalent to Samoan _faʻafafine_ or Thai _katoey_, but the lines are very blurred between that, trans women and effeminate gay men in some circles and the same word is used for all 3. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/138 "2022-06-22T17:13:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The trans people I’ve spoken with are willing to acknowledge that (in the case of a non-dysphoric what you and I would call a trans woman) they’re not necessarily _men_, just … not trans women. How is this any different from a cis bigot saying that a trans woman is not a “real” woman? I don’t think trans people who are prejudiced against a subset of trans people are exempt from transphobia. In any event, unless you are suggesting that we should countenance the possibility of partitioning the gender identity of trans women into “women” and “not fully women” for the purposes of sports participation, I really don’t see how this sidetrack is in any sense a rebuttal to what I said, which was that: > [@Riemann](#): > > The entire point in advocating for trans rights is that gender identity implies _absolutely nothing_ about the physical body, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/139 "2022-06-22T17:29:56Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How is this any different from a cis bigot saying that a trans woman is not a “real” woman? Some degree of earned right? Who gets to say who is trans, if not trans folks? And in that conversation, these are trans voices that come up. That they don’t agree with entire definitions doesn’t make their opinion transphobic, any more than homosexuals who don’t consider sides to be fully committed are homophobic. They’re _something_, I’ll warrant, but not that. > [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t think trans people who are prejudiced against a subset of trans people are exempt from transphobia. Sure, but I am hesitant to call what these people believe to be transphobia in any way of the same class as RW and TERF transphobia. It’s gatekeepery, and I don’t support it, but I’m not going to shun them for it, either, the way I would a cis transphobe. > [@Riemann](#): > > I really don’t see how this sidetrack is in any sense a rebuttal to what I said It’s a rebuttal to the idea that trans rights advocacy is some monolithic bloc that you can just declare has a single “entire point”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/140 "2022-06-22T17:33:13Z")
Fair enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472.md?page=8)