# The ACLU is getting heat for this article **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472 "2022-06-19T23:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/141 "2022-06-22T17:38:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s a rebuttal to the idea that trans rights advocacy is some monolithic bloc that you can just declare has a single entire point. Of course it’s not a monolithic bloc. But that doesn’t mean that you can embrace two _diametrically opposite_ positions on what gender identity means and claim that it make sense. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/142 "2022-06-22T17:40:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But that doesn’t mean that you can embrace two _diametrically opposite_ positions on what gender identity means That’s kind of what it not being a monolithic bloc means. It contains multitudes. “Always makes sense” is superfluous to requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/143 "2022-06-22T17:48:31Z")
So just to be clear about the specific “multitudes” that we have here: Bigots: Trans women are not real women. If you are born with a penis, how can you be a real woman? Trans rights advocates: No! Gender identity is who you deeply and profoundly _feel_ you are, regardless of your physical body. For trans people, their identity is not in accord with their sex assigned at birth. But a trans woman is just as much a real woman as a cis woman. Mr Dibble: Some trans people think if you if you still have a penis you’re not a real woman, and holding that view is okay, it’s just one of a multitude of valid views. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/144 "2022-06-22T17:53:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Sorry to Godwinise, but it is possible to honestly argue that the post-1918 settlement in Germany was probably unfair and still abhor the Nazis. We don’t abhor the Nazis because they thought the settlement was unfair. We abhor them because they killed millions of Jews. You can’t have a rational discussion of (for example) Orthodox Judaism and whether a particular sect’s adherence to traditional gender roles is misogynistic, when most of the people denouncing them are literal Nazis who keep the issue alive entirely because of their hatred of Jews. This issue is not nearly as big as Trans Haters want us to think it is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/145 "2022-06-22T17:58:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Trans rights advocates No, _most_ trans rights advocates. The “Some trans people” in your third class are _also_ trans rights advocates. > [@Riemann](#): > > holding that view is okay, it’s just one of a multitude of valid views I didn’t say I thought that it _was_ valid, just that I wasn’t going to dismiss their views _out of hand_, and I certainly am not going to group them with _actual_ bigots, as you are clearly doing. I think they need to be talked around, and that discussion _is_ happening in trans circles. That, or they’ll die off, it’s only much older trans people who seem to hold that view, IME. I certainly haven’t heard it from my contemporaries or younger. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/146 "2022-06-22T18:00:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I certainly am not going to group them with _actual_ bigots, as you are clearly doing. If a cis person expressed a _precisely identical_ view that someone with a penis is not a real woman, would you say that’s okay? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/147 "2022-06-22T18:02:37Z")
Mmm, what _could_ be the difference between a cis person having a view on trans status, and a trans person having a view… can’t quite put my finger on it. Guess I’ll have to treat both sets of views as of equal weight, then 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/148 "2022-06-22T18:03:03Z")
You are indeed getting closer to a morally coherent position, if you remove the sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/149 "2022-06-22T18:04:58Z")
There’s nothing morally incoherent about the idea that trans people can decide for themselves what qualifies, and that not all trans people are going to agree on those boundaries. And that cis people don’t really have the same say, or at least moral weight to their saying. And the sarcasm stays. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/150 "2022-06-22T18:06:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > the idea that trans people can decide for themselves In the view that you deem acceptable, they are not deciding for themselves. They are saying that a _subset_ of trans women are not real women. And even if their claim were about all trans people, no trans person speaks for all trans people, any more than a cis person speaks for all trans people. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/151 "2022-06-22T18:08:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > We don’t abhor the Nazis because they thought the settlement was unfair. We abhor them because they killed millions of Jews. You’re missing my point. Both I and the Nazis share an opinion that the post WW1 settlement was unfair. The Nazis went on to use that settlement as fuel for their horrific program of fascism and totalitarianism. That has no bearing on whether the post WW1 settlement actually was unfair, nor is that a good enough reason to stop saying it was unfair. Remember my point was in response to your statement to Riemann,… > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Your argument isn’t wrong, but it provides aid and comfort to those who are very very wrong. Which suggests that, even though what they say is true, it shouldn’t be said in case people who share that view also have other more problematic views that aren’t true. If that is not what you meant to imply then I’m happy for you to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/152 "2022-06-22T18:11:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s nothing morally incoherent about the idea that trans people can decide for themselves what qualifies, Is there anything morally incoherent about _any_ identifiable group deciding for themselves what qualifies? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/153 "2022-06-22T18:15:33Z")
Didn’t say they did speak for all trans people. In fact, I specifically said they’re a minority. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, which is what your monolithic treatment of trans gender identity was doing. They are themselves trans, _and_ they have an exclusionary conception of trans identity. You seem to be saying that there’s only one correct way of approaching gender identity, as though there was a strict scientific definition of what transgender is. But that’s clearly not the case, as with any social construct. For some transgender people, it _is_ about bodies, and you are erasing them and their historical struggles when you say “trans advocates” say one thing and one thing only. Or when you call them transphobes and thereby group them with an entirely different set of people. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/154 "2022-06-22T18:27:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That doesn’t mean they don’t exist I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m disagreeing with them. > [@MrDibble](#): > > you are erasing them and their historical struggles Nice rhetoric, but a moral disagreement with someone is not “erasing” them. And if someone has arrived at a transphobic worldview through a life of personal struggle, it is still transphobic. It is transphobic to assert that someone with a penis cannot be a real woman, whoever says it. Frankly, I’m astonished that I’m having this conversation with you. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/155 "2022-06-22T18:28:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Which suggests that, even though what they say is true, it shouldn’t be said in case people who share that view also have other more problematic views that aren’t true. > > If that is not what you meant to imply then I’m happy for you to clarify. It’s almost exactly what I meant to imply. The only difference is that the problematic views aren’t “other views”, they’re the same views. I can agree with Nazis that the sky is blue despite the fact that they committed genocide because blue skies aren’t related to genocide. If we’re discussing Jews, all that goes away, even if the Nazi is technically right, because I know his position isn’t about dispassionate consideration of the issues, it’s 100% hate, and I’m not giving him the satisfaction. I’ll discuss it when hate is no longer the core of the argument. This whole thing about trans athletes destroying women’s sports is propaganda from anti-trans advocates. It’s in the news because anti-trans advocates make it news. If it weren’t for people who hate the trans community, these athletes would simply be a fraction of a fraction of participants in women’s sport, who rarely swing the needle either way. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/156 "2022-06-22T18:35:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s almost exactly what I meant to imply. The only difference is that the problematic views aren’t “other views”, they’re the same views. This is incredibly confusing. You said that Reimann’s argument was “not wrong” but you seem now to be saying that that exact same argument is actually “problematic”? ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/157 "2022-06-22T18:35:52Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Is there anything morally incoherent about _any_ identifiable group deciding for themselves what qualifies? I don’t get to decide what race I am, or what age I am. That is decided for me by society. A 12 year old girl doesn’t get to decide for herself that she’s ready for a relationship with a 24 year old man. For gender what is being put forth is that self identification is all that should ever matter in all circumstances. It is blatantly obvious at this point that if we can never deviate from that, that women’s sports will cease to be because there is no rationale to prevent cis males from competing in those restricted classes. All I hear from those that indicate we can never deviate from self identification is that “It somehow won’t happen.” ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/158 "2022-06-22T18:37:20Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I can agree with Nazis that the sky is blue despite the fact that they committed genocide because blue skies aren’t related to genocide. I see why you are missing the point, The fairness of the 1918 settlement can absolutely be linked to the actions the Nazi’s took. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/159 "2022-06-22T18:38:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not saying they don’t exist. > [@Riemann](#): > > but a moral disagreement with someone is not “erasing” them. When you say there’s one “entire point in advocating for trans rights”, you’re erasing. What would be correct would be saying “the point of advocating for trans rights that I agree with”. > [@Riemann](#): > > It is transphobic to assert that someone with a penis cannot be a real woman, whoever says it. I disagree. _Wrong_, sure. All trans women are real women. But I don’t think it’s bigotry in the people I know. Gatekeeping isn’t always the same thing as bigotry. > [@Jay\_Z](#): > > For gender what is being put forth is that self identification is all that should ever matter in all circumstances. Don’t know who’s done that. Not me. I’ve just said it should matter _more_. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472/160 "2022-06-22T19:02:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When you say there’s one “entire point in advocating for trans rights”, you’re erasing. What would be correct would be saying “the point of advocating for trans rights that I agree with”. What I said, in full, was: > The entire point in advocating for trans rights is that gender identity implies _absolutely nothing_ about the physical body, and vice versa. And I stand by that - saying it is the “entire point” obviously means I believe it is transphobic to assert that gender identity is in any way dependent on physical characteristics. So no, I don’t accept your distinction at all. I am simply _disagreeing_ with the viewpoint espoused by a small minority of trans people who claim that someone with a penis cannot be a woman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclu-is-getting-heat-for-this-article/966472.md?page=9)