# The ACLU's new cause: jail time for unapproved speech. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149 "2009-09-07T06:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/41 "2009-09-07T18:23:23Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > At this point, I’ll insert my usual plug for school privatization so as to solve this issue (among others) If schools administrators are no longer agents of the government, then anything goes with respect to religion/no religion and people can vote with their funds. > > Don’t like the fact that there is no prayer in your child’s school, then go to the competing one down the road Not sure if you’re aware of this, but private schools already exists. You want your kid to get prayed at, you can pay for it yourself. Don’t use the public dime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/42 "2009-09-07T18:32:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Consider that the ACLU was responsible for both the original lawsuit and the later motion that may lead to jail time, I think it’s fine for my grievance to be with them. The lawsuit was filed by _students_, not the ACLU – students who were subjected to rape and death threats for doing so. The ACLU represents _clients_. Any jail time will be a result of a violation of a courtt order, not the ACLU. The ACLU cannot send people to jail and does not write the law. Your beef is with the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/43 "2009-09-07T18:38:02Z")
I’m really starting to wonder about the quality of civics instruction in U.S. schools. Civics was a part of my 9th grade proficiency exams when I was in high school, and a not insignificant number of my classmates did not pass it. I remember thinking how stupid they were for not knowing basic aspects of America’s government and laws, but I’m starting to believe that quite a few Americans are perfectly fine with their own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/44 "2009-09-07T18:48:35Z")
**IRT Champion** : Are you arguing _against_ the incorporation of the Bill of Rights? That is, there is a long-standing (yet not uncontroversial and in some areas unsettled) area of law focused on which (and to what extent) Constitutional protections extend to State actions. Are you arguing whether those protections _should_ extend to state action, or whether they _do_ extend to state action? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/45 "2009-09-07T18:55:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > students who were subjected to rape and death threats for doing so. Link? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/46 "2009-09-07T20:32:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Link? It’s in **Larry Borgia’s** link in post #4 above. Here’s the quote: > [@](#): > > Florida’s Santa Rosa County School District has a long and unrepentant history of unconstitutionally sponsoring prayers, proselytizing students, and generally promoting particular religious beliefs throughout district schools. In August 2008, no longer able to bear this infringement on their liberties, two students at Pace High School sued the district with the assistance of the ACLU. Many in the community reacted in an uproar: the student plaintiffs were vilified in the media and threatened with rape and death, among other efforts to intimidate them, and district officials vowed to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/47 "2009-09-08T00:24:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not sure if you’re aware of this, but private schools already exists. You want your kid to get prayed at, you can pay for it yourself. Don’t use the public dime. Problem is that I’m already contributing to the public schools whether I want to use them or not, so that’s an incentive to keep using them. If you give me back my contributions in the form of a voucher, then I’ll be glad not to use the “public dime”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/48 "2009-09-08T00:30:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Problem is that I’m already contributing to the public schools whether I want to use them or not, so that’s an incentive to keep using them. If you give me back my contributions in the form of a voucher, then I’ll be glad not to use the “public dime”. How generous. And your suggestion for Tomas, the kid in my class who desperately looks forward to the food bag we send home every week, is what, exactly? Let him eat cake? If we give you back your “contributions,” how will he get an education? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/49 "2009-09-08T00:38:45Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Problem is that I’m already contributing to the public schools whether I want to use them or not, so that’s an incentive to keep using them. If you give me back my contributions in the form of a voucher, then I’ll be glad not to use the “public dime”. No kidding. I’m already contributing to roads I don’t use, hospitals I don’t use, military bases I don’t use, and incredibly stupid wars I don’t want. If you give me my contributions back in the form of a voucher, I’ll be glad not to use them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/50 "2009-09-08T00:41:06Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Problem is that I’m already contributing to the public schools whether I want to use them or not, so that’s an incentive to keep using them. If you give me back my contributions in the form of a voucher, then I’ll be glad not to use the “public dime”. This makes no sense. Contributing to public schools does not give you the right to proselytize in them. The Constitution forbids using the public dime to promote religion. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/51 "2009-09-08T00:49:22Z")
But according to a relatively small but loud minority of Christians, their freedom of religion includes the right to force everyone else to practice their faith. I fail to find that idea anywhere in the Constitution, the writings of the Founding Fathers, or statute or case law. But it must be there – they’re so firmly convinced they have that right! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/52 "2009-09-08T00:56:21Z")
Well, its for our own good, isn’t it? Spiritually speaking, they’re just making sure we eat our spinach. Of course, I say its spinach, and I say to hell with it! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/53 "2009-09-08T01:09:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes no sense. Contributing to public schools does not give you the right to proselytize in them. The Constitution forbids using the public dime to promote religion. Period. Right. So if you don’t have such a thing as public schools and give people tax credits to attend a private school of their choice, then there is no constitutional issue about religion. That was my only point; I didn’t intend to debate prayer in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/54 "2009-09-08T01:22:28Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Right. So if you don’t have such a thing as public schools and give people tax credits to attend a private school of their choice, then there is no constitutional issue about religion. That was my only point; I didn’t intend to debate prayer in public schools. I actually can see that. I hope you don’t think my rant was directed at you (in point of fact, it was a group of people with the attitude I bitched about on another board who triggered it). I have philosophical issues with vouchers, but bigger ones with one-size-fits-all government-issue standards. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/55 "2009-09-08T01:25:26Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Right. So if you don’t have such a thing as public schools and give people tax credits to attend a private school of their choice, then there is no constitutional issue about religion. That was my only point; I didn’t intend to debate prayer in public schools. That’s still using tax money to fund religion, and basically offers no option to people can’t afford private schools. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/56 "2009-09-08T02:04:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In Santa Rosa County, Florida, the ACLU filed a lawsuit alleging first amendment violations. The case lead to further cases and eventual agreements. Among the results, the principal Frank Lay and another administrator, Robert Freeman, may face jail time because they offered a blessing of a new building at the school at a ceremony attended by adults. Another employee, Michelle Winkler, is being prosecuted because she requested a prayer at an event that wasn’t even held on school property. The President of the senior class, Mary Allen, was banned from speaking at this year’s graduation ceremony because she was a Christian, even though it’s customary for the class president to speak at the ceremony. [Here’s an article on the case.](http://blackchristiannews.com/news/2009/08/christian-law-firm-stands-with-school-officials-who-are-facing-criminal-charges-for-praying-at-a-lun-1.html) The information about Mary Allen is not mentioned there; it comes from a Washington Times article from last month. > > I have to admit being a little bit puzzled by this. My copy of the First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” I interpret this as meaning that any person can say what they want, when they want, where they want, and the federal government cannot stop them. The ACLU apparently interprets it as meaning the opposite, namely that the government can imprison and otherwise punish people for their speech or for their religion. I’m guessing you were one of those hired by Monica Goodling to be part of the Bush Justice Dept. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/57 "2009-09-08T06:35:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > My interpretation is that the Constitution means what it says. In the Bill of Rights, most amendments are written so as to limit what all government can do. The Eighth, for example, simply says that there will be no excessive bail or fines or punishment. Period. Hence those things are illegal from any part of the government at any time or place for any reason. The First, on the other hand, goes out of the way to make clear that it applies to Congress exclusively. So, if the mayor of a town were to shut down a newspaper for printing bad things about him, (with a law passed permitting it) this would be fine with you because Congress didn’t do it? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/58 "2009-09-08T07:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > it was legal until the courts outlawed it in the 60’s, and I’m sure some people in this thread have living memories of that. When I began teaching in 1969, my high school principal insisted on Bible readings every morning. I think he also had prayer from time to time. He brought in a well known televangelist to preach to us in an assembly program. My blood used to boil. Finally, in a faculty meeting one day, one of the teachers questioned him on the legality of what he was doing. He slammed down his fist and said that he would continue to read the Bible every morning and have devotionals until he was given a court order to stop. It may have taken another month or two, but he stopped. The teacher who complained was married to an ACLU attorney and the Supremes had already ruled that the kind of things he was doing were out of line. For the twenty years that I taught, however, I continued to run into problems at other schools with teachers and principals who ignored the law while I was a captive audience. They were very aware of my objections. All of them were very hostile fundamentalists. Some harrassed me in the faculty lounge about my beliefs (supporting the SCOTUS ruling). There were many times that I could have filed a suit. (But the administrators would just have made it harder on me.) I was an Episcopalian and if I wanted to take Ash Wednesday or All Saints’ Day off for special services, I had to go to the rector and get a statement about these days and so forth. Another year, the principal told the vice principal to “run interference” on my request. They were all members of fundamentalist churches. I wonder what it is they are so anxious to pray for. Those of you who keep pushing for the concept of prayer in the classroom again probably have no real notion of what most classrooms across the country look like now. There wouldn’t be any time at all before someone will claim to be a Satanist and would want equal time. Then the vampires and who knows? Yes, you can still pray. Isn’t that what matters? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/59 "2009-09-08T10:10:48Z")
No, Zoe. It isn’t. What matters is that somewhere, someone else is _not_ praying to their God. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149/60 "2009-09-08T17:56:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s still using tax money to fund religion, and basically offers no option to people can’t afford private schools. But everyone would get a refundable tax credit, therefore everyone could afford a private school. As for using tax money to fund religion, I guess in a way you are correct, but what if someone uses their Earned Income Tax Credit check and donates it to their church? That’s pretty much the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-aclus-new-cause-jail-time-for-unapproved-speech/509149.md?page=4)