The ACLU's new cause: jail time for unapproved speech.

In their what? Although I might give a more substantive answer, and say that your interpretation in effect says, “Citizens of the United States have rights. The states may violate them with impunity.”

“This proves not to be the case.” The Fourteenth was passed precisely because the states, or some of them, specifically the former Confederacy now being reconstructed, were intentionally and willfully denying rights to American citizens. One major focus of that denial was black people, to be sure, but far from the only one. And the amendment was intentionally written with broad language to ensure that no ingenious way of denying those rights would pass muster. Note the differences in the broad language of tje 14th and the very specific language of the 24th.

Oh, and by the way, telling a public employee they cannot compel minor children temporarily in their care to practice their, the public employee’s, religion, is not “censorship” or “violating their freedom of religion.”

The amendment was put into effect in 1867. The first instance of incorporation of a right by it was in 1897, in an opinion written by that flaming liberal Chief Justice Edard D. White. I assume thirty years is “nearly a century” in ITR speak?

Someday take a course in basic civics. Courts “make law” all the time – case law. It’s their job. And courts are not in the business of “law enforcement.” There’s a difference between a judge and a cop beyond what outfit they’re wearing on the job. If you want to live in a country where arrest by a cop is an immediate guarantee of guilty status, and a plaintiff wins every lawsuit he files, and any public official can cram his religious beliefs down your or my throat at his leisure, go right ahead. But don’t try to turn my country into your totalitarian theocracy.

Because servicemen, congressmen, and others (even convicts) have the right to freely exercise their faith, and chaplains are provided to enable them to better do so. Telling a serviceman in Iraq, “Sure you have the right to believe that a priest can pronounce God’s forgiveness of your sins when you confess them to him, and you can visit one back in the States – if you live,” is effectively denying him the free exercise of his faith. Sending a priest as chaplain enables him to exercise it. And nobody else is obliged to make use of said chaplain if his services go against their faith. Besides chaplains, what other government employees are “hired with religious duties”? Provide a detailed list, please.

Bottom line, nowhere in the First Amendment or anywhere else does it permit any person whatsoever to use the resources of government to compel or coerce anyone else to practice their faith. In fact, it explicitly says Congress cannot do that, and the courts, backed by every competent legal scholar, have been in agreement that the states and their minor subdivisions have been equally prohibited from doing so for 142 years.

The ACLU has consistently advocated for the rights of the religious to proselytize in malls, visit houses, and remain free from state interference. The absurd notion that they are anti-religion, because they sue to enforce the establishment clause, is really unfortunate.

But what’s amusing to me is that the OP’s preferred interpretation of the First Amendment is the one that would allow state governments to eliminate the free exercise of religion. If the Amendment only applies to the US Congress, then California can just straight up ban Christianity altogether.

In the future, in Great Debates, you will be much more careful that any claims of lying are directed toward third parties and not, even inadvertantly, at posters on this board.
[ /Moderating ]

You missed my irony. I was restating the OP’s argument.

Consider that the ACLU was responsible for both the original lawsuit and the later motion that may lead to jail time, I think it’s fine for my grievance to be with them.

Anyone else so tired of the Bible Belt loonies that you want to secede yourself?

My interpretation is that the Constitution means what it says. In the Bill of Rights, most amendments are written so as to limit what all government can do. The Eighth, for example, simply says that there will be no excessive bail or fines or punishment. Period. Hence those things are illegal from any part of the government at any time or place for any reason. The First, on the other hand, goes out of the way to make clear that it applies to Congress exclusively. So it’s unconstitutional for public school officials to torture–though some do anyway, maybe the ACLU should address that–but not unconstitutional to pray on school grounds.

In fact, one wonders why the ACLU keeps insisting that it’s fighting for the First Amendment, but then defenders have to quickly adjust and insist that they’re fighting for the Fourteenth Amendment, and then adjust again and admit that they’re really just fighting for various court decisions rather than the original intent of the Constitution.

Are you saying that the Supreme Court ruled school prayer illegal in 1897? If so, I’d like to see the case. In my history books, it was legal until the courts outlawed it in the 60’s, and I’m sure some people in this thread have living memories of that.

Ahhhh, my bad.
Le whooooooosh!

Oh look, it’s time for yet another of ITR’s fact-free anti-atheist rants.

Because Congress is the only body that could establish a national religion. Since it’s the legislative branch.

What, exactly, do you believe that the ACLU should do to compel the DA to press charges? And how does this have anything to do with the first amendment? You mean if the ACLU isn’t on top of each and every single violation that goes on in schools, you’ve got a gotchaya! ready?

Because it is.

This is, at best, hugely inaccurate and at worst quite deliberately obfuscatory while purposefully missing the point in order to use a bogus rhetorical gambit. People point out that the 1st applies to the states due to the 14th. Nobody, at all, has claimed that that ACLU is championing the 14th in a vacuum. Nor has anybody claimed that the ACLU’s actions are not in accord with what the Constitution actually says. Nor is it at all wrong to point out that the law in the United States is made by several factors, including precedent and SCOTUS decisions. If you do not understand that this is how the law is made then don’t lay that at the feet of the ACLU.

I have a question for the OP: have you ever considered that someday you may live in a place where your particular brand of religion is not the majority? What if you lived in parts of NYC that are mostly Jewish, or Boston that are mostly Catholic, or Detroit that are Muslim, or Arkansas that are snake handlers? Would you want your child to be led in prayers by teachers of another faith? Would you want the commencment speaker to ask the audience to please get down on their knees and face Mecca while she thanks Allah for her good grades?

What if the teacher were, say, a Jehovah’s Witness, where pledging allegiance to anything other than God is prohibited? Has this particular issue been adjudicated yet? I’d be surprised if not.

What grade do you teach? As far back as I can remember, the teacher never led the pledge. It was always either part of the morning announcements or delegated to the “pledge leader” of the week.

I’m curious as to how NC handles these situations.

No one argues (or is arguing) that it is unconstitutional to pray on school grounds.

If one of our Ohio members were to ask Elendils Heir to issue a bench warrant requiring that ITR Champion, if he ever sets foot in Ohio, should be taken into custody and locked up until he agrees to convert to Episcopalianism, I presume he would have no objection to this being done, since on his interpretation there is no law guaranteeing his freedom of religion as against state action. And Congress would have nothing to do with that action, just as he makes ckear.

So I guess that would be OK constitutionally, right? :eek:

If that’s true, the teachers would have little problem defeating this requirement in court.

Very little problem.

IIRC, adjudicated 60 years ago.

I’d be exceptionally hard pressed to believe that any school district in the country could force a teacher to lead the class in the Pledge against their wishes.

I don’t disbelieve you. I am sincerely curious. Can you cite this law for me?

And why hasn’t the ACLU (et al) or people with your sentiments challenged this law?

Well a teacher may worry about their job and/or their safety.

A valid concern to be sure.

Still, those same kids who have the exemption that LHoD refers to were ridiculed unmercifully, beaten and abused in their quest to secure their rights. (codified in SCOTUS rulings)

I’m glad you asked, because here’s the law. And I was wrong.

I swear I looked up the law and read the text before I began teaching, looking for a way out, and I didn’t find one. All these years I’ve remembered this sentence

as saying essentially

Now, you’re right that there are career issues: especially for a teacher in their first few years, the principal can fail to renew your contract without giving cause, until you reach career status, and this isn’t a hill I want to die on. But still, I thought the law was written much more poorly. Instead, it looks like I misunderstood the law every bit as much as ITR Champion misunderstood what happened in the OP’s case.

My apologies, and again my thanks for asking for the cite!