The additional cost of poverty...

[Balthisar]

@dennis gallagher

To eliminate poverty requires the efforts of the government and the people, not just the people who are poor.

Poverty is all but eliminated in this country. Yeah, you have people with screwed up economic situations; you have the crazies that live on the streets; and you have welfare. People may look like they’re suffering compared to how you live, but there’s no abject poverty. Clean water, food, and basic shelter. Can’t pay your medical bills? That’s not poverty; we as a society cover that (by increasing our bills and/or premiums). American “poor” are wealthy in comparison to any of the undeveloped world. I grew up poor – dirt poor – and I know what it’s like to have no money and wonder where food is coming from and getting government cheese. It sucked, and I’m glad I’m not in that situation today. But that wasn’t poverty.

Our economic system dictates that there must be people that are better off and worse off than others. The only way to make the poor more comfortable (and who’s got an inalienable right to comfort?) is to start implementing wealth redistribution on a grander scale, which kind of eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself for too many people.

[ralph124c]

@Common Tater

I’ve thought of that, or heard it mentioned before. But - how well do you think that would go over - “I’m broke, my ass in the wind - and now I gotta go to a mandatory class.”

No, the time for “mandatory counseling” would be prior to the extension of credit or a family approaching the poverty line. I agree in principle though, that people are often woefully uninformed about money and credit.

I certainly was no exception, very quickly burning through what little savings I had accumulated, racked up some nice credit card debt, bought a car, borrowed lots of money for college, etc. It was extremely difficult to bring this under control but it was worth it. I learned that compound interest works both ways - simple, but still.

What I discovered, and is not advertised so well, is that a good credit rating is one of the keys, if not the key, to a successful life in the US. Just a few dings on the ole credit rating - and the price of everything just went up - cars, consumer credit, mortgages, everything. And I mean everything, and for a long time. And, it may mean not getting that job one just applied for.

On the other hand, paying off debts down to reasonable levels, maintaining a rock steady payment history, saving even just a little at the bank, word gets around and other doors will open up. Money rates are much more competitive. The additional thing to remember that isn’t often mentioned about the poor - they aren’t just getting ripped off on what they buy - the money spent must also be measured agains the “lost opportunity costs” i.e. money going to service interest payments would have gained at minimum the prevailing interest rates, or even greater returns invested in stocks or mutual funds.

Another point; the poor spend an inordinate amount of income on fast food. it is much cheaper and healthier to cook at home: and eat low fat, high protein meat substitutes (like lentils and beans), if you know how to cook, you can prepare excellent meals at very low cost-and you won’t be eating that fast food crap-which costs a lot and is bad for your health.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Balthisar

The only way to make the poor more comfortable (and who’s got an inalienable right to comfort?) is to start implementing wealth redistribution on a grander scale, which kind of eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself for too many people.

I’d like cites for both statements here please: 1, that the only way to make poor people more comfortable is to redistribute wealth; and 2, that redistributing wealth eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself.

[myrnajean]

@Balthisar

Poverty is all but eliminated in this country. snip.

I have to agree. I grew up poor in a poor urban neighborhood, but we always had food at least once a day, shoes, clothes on our backs, TV. It wasn’t necessarily new clothes or tasty junk food, (my ma could feed a family of four with one porkchop and a cup of rice) but we did way better than some of those poor souls you see on National Geographic with the distended stomachs and baggy skin.

We just really expect too much, and take way too much for granted…

[Shodan]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

I’d like cites for both statements here please: 1, that the only way to make poor people more comfortable is to redistribute wealth; and 2, that redistributing wealth eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself.

I can help with the second. Although “tends to reduce” is a more accurate assessment than “eliminate”.

Regards,
Shodan

[Balthisar]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

@Balthisar

The only way to make the poor more comfortable (and who’s got an inalienable right to comfort?) is to start implementing wealth redistribution on a grander scale, which kind of eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself for too many people.

I’d like cites for both statements here please: 1, that the only way to make poor people more comfortable is to redistribute wealth; and 2, that redistributing wealth eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself.

Of course in context my statement has a bit of hyperbole, but easily justifiable. I’ll be lazy and use Shodan’s link for the second point (whereby “kind of eliminates… for too many” in English obviosuly doesn’t imply “in all cases eliminates… for everyone,” thankyouverymuch).

Point 1, then… what’s the best way to cite this? I’m not sure if you’re looking to point out (a) even wealth redistribution won’t work or (b) it’s the only means of making the poor more comfortable, or (c) that’s it’s even possible to make the poor more comfortable? Remember I’m only spouting hyperbole, but even as such, I can cite a specific point of interpretation.

[Anne_Neville]

@ralph124c

Another point; the poor spend an inordinate amount of income on fast food. it is much cheaper and healthier to cook at home: and eat low fat, high protein meat substitutes (like lentils and beans), if you know how to cook, you can prepare excellent meals at very low cost-and you won’t be eating that fast food crap-which costs a lot and is bad for your health.

Problem is, a lot of poor neighborhoods don’t have a real grocery store, just convenience stores. Convenience stores are much less likely than grocery stores to sell things that you could use to cook a meal from scratch. And the poor are less likely to have a reliable car that they can use to drive to a grocery store outside their neighborhood, or to be able to afford the extra gas that that would require.

@Nicest of the Damned

In particular, inability to pay for first and last months rent and security deposit kept people living in motels that cost more than apartments.

The poor people who can afford to get into apartments are still getting a much worse deal than somewhat better-off people who can buy a home instead of renting.

In most areas, home prices go upward over time.

If a homeowner’s home becomes worth more money, the homeowner still doesn’t pay more for it. The mortgage is written for a certain amount of money (though the interest rate might fluctuate, that has nothing to do with the value of the house). The situation is different for a renter. If the value of a rental property goes up, the landlord is going to increase the rent, so the renter’s housing costs go up.

The homeowner benefits from the increase in property values when they sell the home, too. The renter doesn’t- they get nothing when they move out, no matter how much the property has gone up in value while they lived there.

And don’t forget- the homeowner’s mortgage interest payments are tax deductible, which the renter’s rent payments are not.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@Anne Neville

Problem is, a lot of poor neighborhoods don’t have a real grocery store, just convenience stores. Convenience stores are much less likely than grocery stores to sell things that you could use to cook a meal from scratch. And the poor are less likely to have a reliable car that they can use to drive to a grocery store outside their neighborhood, or to be able to afford the extra gas that that would require.
.

Time’s a factor here, too, for the working poor. They spend so much time at work, and riding the bus, that they tend to do what’s expedient, which is going to McDonalds again.

[monstro]

@Spectre of Pithecanthropus

Time’s a factor here, too, for the working poor. They spend so much time at work, and riding the bus, that they tend to do what’s expedient, which is going to McDonalds again.

Very true. The working poor don’t have a lot of time for cooking, exercising, and parental quality time (like reading to their kids at night) that wealthier people take for granted.

It also doesn’t help that fast food restaurants are disproportionately located in poor neighborhoods.

[Anne_Neville]

@Spectre of Pithecanthropus

Time’s a factor here, too, for the working poor. They spend so much time at work, and riding the bus, that they tend to do what’s expedient, which is going to McDonalds again.

In areas like the Bay Area, they also tend to have longer commutes than better-off people, because most housing near where the jobs are is so expensive. Even rental housing near where most people work is expensive.

[Mangosteen]

[QUOTE=dennis gallagher]
i don’t want to be rude and i could not be more sympathetyic to your plight and i agree the person who suggested bettering yourself so you would be worth more than $10/hr is an insensitive idiot=QUOTE]

Heaven strike me down for suggesting that someone try bettering them self through education or training!

Would you suggest they do nothing and continue living in what they apparently feel is a “Terrible Cycle” (Poster’s own words).

Did I call the poster lazy? And that they deserved to be in the position they are in? Maybe they got a few bad breaks and they are not in good shape right now, but it certainly isn’t the end of the world for them. I merely suggested that furthering ones education or training might be one way out of their predicament.

What would your more “sensitive” suggestion be?

[elfkin477]

@Mangosteen

One might try and make oneself worth more than $10.00 an hour through more training or education.

Though they’re making a little more than $10 an hour, I’ve supervised people with masters degrees and doctorate degrees both. I have a BA. I make $2-4/hour more than they do… when they tell high school students that a better education will make you more money, they leave a lot of factors out.

[kidchameleon]

@elfkin477

Though they’re making a little more than $10 an hour, I’ve supervised people with masters degrees and doctorate degrees both. I have a BA. I make $2-4/hour more than they do… when they tell high school students that a better education will make you more money, they leave a lot of factors out.

Bah, for every one of you, there’s me making more than the combined income of my three roommates with one B.A. betwixt them.

[Mangosteen]

@elfkin477

Though they’re making a little more than $10 an hour, I’ve supervised people with masters degrees and doctorate degrees both. I have a BA. I make $2-4/hour more than they do… when they tell high school students that a better education will make you more money, they leave a lot of factors out.

Of course the education or training must be focused on a field or trade that is in demand. Just open up a newspaper to the classified ads and see where the jobs are.

Training in plumbing, A/C & heating repair, and auto mechanics will get you an entry position tomorrow in most places.

An education in computer science, the medical field and teaching will get you a job, but degrees (like my own) in Political Science, Art History, etc. will make your job search a lot tougher.

[Anne_Neville]

Cars are expensive, especially older ones.

If you’re poor, you might not have the option of paying cash for a car that will run reliably. So you have to borrow money to buy a car, which means paying interest.

Older cars can develop problems seemingly overnight. One day you go to start up your car, and it’s making a funny noise, or leaking some kind of fluid, or a light on the dash won’t go out. It could cost a few hundred dollars to fix it, depending on what exactly the problem is.

Car insurance isn’t cheap, either.

Not having a car has its costs, too. You might not be able to get the cheapest or best housing, because you have to live close to your work or to transit. Or you might be limited in what jobs you can take, because you can’t get a different job that you would have to drive to. And, of course, you can’t easily do things like buy groceries in bulk or go to a supermarket outside your neighborhood if you don’t have a car.

@Mangosteen

Of course the education or training must be focused on a field or trade that is in demand. Just open up a newspaper to the classified ads and see where the jobs are.

But that won’t tell you where the jobs will be in a year, or in five years. What field or trade is in demand does change over time.

[denquixote]

@Balthisar

Poverty is all but eliminated in this country. Yeah, you have people with screwed up economic situations; you have the crazies that live on the streets; and you have welfare. People may look like they’re suffering compared to how you live, but there’s no abject poverty. Clean water, food, and basic shelter. Can’t pay your medical bills? That’s not poverty; we as a society cover that (by increasing our bills and/or premiums). American “poor” are wealthy in comparison to any of the undeveloped world. I grew up poor – dirt poor – and I know what it’s like to have no money and wonder where food is coming from and getting government cheese. It sucked, and I’m glad I’m not in that situation today. But that wasn’t poverty.

Our economic system dictates that there must be people that are better off and worse off than others. The only way to make the poor more comfortable (and who’s got an inalienable right to comfort?) is to start implementing wealth redistribution on a grander scale, which kind of eliminates the motivation to do better for oneself for too many people.

Well, I am not going to define poverty, but the federal government which in the hands of the republicans has demonstrated no concerted effort to reducing it still defines poverty with the use of income threshholds and still finds that a large number of people in this country are not meeting the requirements to escape.

I agree the capitalist system will always result in great disparities and the arbitrary upgrading of life and comfort for those deemed to be living in poverty could result in some who are not living in that condition to decide to demote themselves for the free handout. Well the handout does not have to be free, but that is another issue. However, with regard to “who’s got an inalienable right to comfort” I would just ask “who has a right to privacy” “who has a right to freedom of speech, association and movement” who has any rights? The citizens of America have rights and the Supreme Court determines which ones are inalienable using the U.S. Constitution as a guide. These things have changed over time as you well know and the right to be free from poverty or as you put it the “right to comfort” may in fact be one we do have.

[Merijeek]

@Anne Neville

Cars are expensive, especially older ones.

Hells yes.

How many people have (the collective) you known that buy an $800 beater, spend half their weekend working on it, and still end up replacing it in six months after dropping another $500 in parts?

Jim Anchower is a parody based on many, many people.

Finance a slightly-used Civic, people!

-Joe

[Belrix]

@Merijeek

Hells yes.

How many people have (the collective) you known that buy an $800 beater, spend half their weekend working on it, and still end up replacing it in six months after dropping another $500 in parts?

Jim Anchower is a parody based on many, many people.

Finance a slightly-used Civic, people!

-Joe

I’ve got a 16-year old 4Runner. So far, since I’ve got it 12 months ago, it’s absorbed about $1800 in repairs.

That’s $150 a month to maintain this vehicle. Still less than car payments. (I drive too many miles per year to lease). Many of the repairs are non-recurring, though.

It still needs an $80 U-joint and I think I’ve lost an idle-pulley on the air-conditioning but that can wait. The exhaust manifold gasket is burnt and needs replaced - that’s $15 for the gasket and an afternoon to get it in. Call it an even $200 yet to be spent.

That $2000 invested should be about it for the next year or two I hope. Still cheaper than car payments.

The problem for the poor is that the repairs don’t come in nice even costs per month. Absorbing $600 in repairs (my differential rebuild) either takes careful budgeting, a credit card, or blind luck.

Every now and then I compare the gas mileage to something more modern, add in the repairs and I come close to buying something new. The repairs, though, are already sunk costs. I’m making a bet that they’re enough to keep the car from needing more repairs over the next two years while I dig myself out of the divorce hole.

[Anne_Neville]

Better-off people have the opportunity to get work experience from a job that doesn’t necessarily pay a living wage, or to work part-time (with the associated pay cut) while getting an education, because they have savings they can live off of or relatives who will help them with living expenses (generally without charging interest for the loan, as a bank or other commercial lender would do). Poor people don’t have that option- they have to get a job that pays their living expenses right now.

@Belrix

They smoke 20 packs of Marlboro cigarettes between the two of them per week.

Quitting smoking is hard for anyone, AIUI. There have been many threads in which Dopers talk about the difficulties they have encountered in quitting smoking. I suspect it’s even harder if you don’t have health insurance- you don’t have access to some of the methods of quitting smoking that people who do have health insurance and prescription drug coverage do.

@Merijeek

Finance a slightly-used Civic, people!

Unfortunately for people who want to go with this option, Civics hold their value pretty well, so a slightly-used Civic isn’t much cheaper than a new one.

I know this because I have a three-year-old Civic, and Mr. Neville recently had to look up its value as part of determining our assets for getting a mortgage. We found out that it’s still worth (at retail, which is, for whatever reason, what the bank wanted to know) almost as much as it was new. I would assume that something similar would be the case for other cars known for reliability.

@Belrix

The problem for the poor is that the repairs don’t come in nice even costs per month. Absorbing $600 in repairs (my differential rebuild) either takes careful budgeting, a credit card, or blind luck.

And Murphy’s Law applies here- cars seem to know when it’s a bad time financially speaking, and choose then to require expensive repairs. For most people, a car isn’t something they can do without for a few weeks or months while they scrape together the money for repairs, either- they need it to get to work or the grocery store or to any education or training they are taking. And poor people are less likely than better-off people to have jobs where they can take a few hours or days off because their car is acting up.

@Mangosteen

Would you suggest they do nothing and continue living in what they apparently feel is a “Terrible Cycle” (Poster’s own words).

Of course they should do something. But we as a society should also be doing something to help them deal with some of the very real difficulties they will encounter in doing so. Telling poor people that they need to go out and get an education isn’t enough to solve the problem. There are things that we as a society could do about a lot of the problems that create the cycle of poverty, if we wanted to.

There are a fair number of poor people who are not stupid (there are, of course, some who are). The ones who are not stupid probably know that they would be better off if they got some education or training, got a better job, and so on. But it’s difficult to do those things while working long hours, spending a lot of time commuting, and living paycheck-to-paycheck. I suspect that most better-off people, if they suddenly woke up tomorrow as a poor person, couldn’t or wouldn’t do it.

@dennis gallagher

it is really heart rending to hear the animus directed at poor people in this country on a daily basis

Don’t underestimate the psychological and emotional effects of constantly hearing that you must be poor because you’re stupid, lazy, and inferior, either. It’s not easy for someone who is being constantly bombarded with the message that they’re not good enough to think that they could make themselves better if they wanted to.

[kimera]

@Anaamika

I make more than $14,000 a year and I am single and have no kids so I am not eligible for a **drop **of financial aid.

How is this possible? Are you under 24? I make 16k/year and I am single with no kids and I get my community college completely paid for by the government. There is even a program I could join which would pay for my books and stuff. I guess California is just very generous.