# The all-encompassing art pronunciation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 10, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854 "2004-01-10T19:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/1 "2004-01-10T19:32:55Z")
A chance for all you pedants to show off. 😉 Anyway, I was once again reminded in a recent conversation that people often mispronounce artists’ names, and I am certainly not exempt from these mistakes myself. So, I figured, why not harness the collective knowledge of this community to set things straight? And the artsists? Painters, sculptors, architects, composers, musicians, actors, playwrights, poets, authors, industrial designers, photographers, and categories I can’t think of right now – in short, pretty much everybody. I’ll start: **PAINTERS** [ul][li] **Paul Klee** : _clay_[/li][li] **Joan Miro** : _mee-ROH_. I’ve heard the first name pronounced as both “Juan” and “ho-AN,” and don’t know which is more acceptable.[/ul] **AUTHORS** [ul][_] **Samuel Pepys** : peeps[/li][li] **Marcel Proust** : proost[/li][_] **Ayn Rand** : rhymes with _pine_[/ul]More later, I’m sure… ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/2 "2004-01-10T21:20:33Z")
**Architects** **I.M. Pei:** _pay_ **Painters** **Edgar Munch:** _munk_ **Van Gogh:** [_van HOCH_](http://www.nga.gov/sound/gogh/vangogh-dutch.wav); the rest of the [site](http://www.nga.gov/education/vgt_pronun.htm) is also educational on pronunciation of artist’s names. **Commonly misspelled and mispronounced** **Michelangelo:** not Michael + Angelo, _mi-kel-AN-je-loh_ ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/3 "2004-01-10T21:27:12Z")
Plus, since this is a chance to show off, I must mention that Michelangelo’s last name was Buonarotti, and Raphael, his contemporary, was Raphael Santi. And, I forgot to mention Leonardo da Vinci. **Leonardo:** not Leon + ardo, _ley-o-NAR-do_ No, I’m not going to include Donatello. His name is rendered relatively accurately by most English speakers, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/4 "2004-01-10T21:28:19Z")
**Panderecki** : _pan der ET ski_ ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/5 "2004-01-10T21:28:20Z")
Curses, it’s _ley-oh-NAR-doh_ ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/6 "2004-01-10T21:29:39Z")
–and **Munch** is more _moonk_ than _munk_. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/7 "2004-01-10T21:41:58Z")
The _Van Gogh_ sound is wrong. The ‘a’ in ‘Van’ should be like the ‘a’ in ‘darling’. And the ‘G’ is like the ‘ch’ in ‘chthonic’, the sound coming from the back of the throat. It helps if you try to spit out some phlegm at the same time ;). Alternatively, it is a bit like the ‘h’ sound of latin speakers speaking bad English in bad movies (‘Can you ghelp me?’). I always have trouble with Russian names, like **Shostakovich**. Which syllable is stressed, the ‘ko’ or the ‘vich’? IIRC it is **Na_bo_kov**. ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/8 "2004-01-10T21:42:22Z")
Oh yeah, I was trying for a semi-IPA spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/9 "2004-01-10T21:50:23Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how to say **Découpage** 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/10 "2004-01-10T21:56:10Z")
**Sinungaling** : that was pretty darn quick! : looks over his shoulder to search for hidden camera : I didn’t mean to criticize your semi-phonetic spelling; my comment was aimed at the WAV-file you linked at which had a fair GOGH but an awful American VAN. ---
**Author:** ![Dizzy\_Fingers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dizzy\_Fingers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dizzy_Fingers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/11 "2004-01-10T22:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tusculan \* > \*\*I always have trouble with Russian names, like **Shostakovich**. Which syllable is stressed, the ‘ko’ or the ‘vich’? > \*\* I believe it’s the “ko,” as demonstrated by Victor Borge: “Now here’s a piece by Shostakovich. . . Shostakovich. . . shost a moment. . .” ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/12 "2004-01-10T22:22:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Earthling \* > [li] **Paul Klee** : _clay_[/li] Very close. I think it’s the closest possible in English. However a German ee or long e is a sound that doesn’t exist in standard English. It is a “long close-mid front vowel” or /e:/ in IPA. Imagine something very much like “ay” that isn’t a diphthong - without any glide, just one single vowel. That is also how a french é (e.g. café ) is pronounced. btw. Klee means clover in German. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/13 "2004-01-11T00:50:49Z")
**Piet Mondrian:** My art teacher told me it’s pronounced like the common name “Pete”. Almost doesn’t seem worth being a famous artist just to be called Pete. At least, that’s my angle on it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/14 "2004-01-11T02:42:37Z")
My HS art teacher always maintained that it’s called a **kill** , not a **kiln** , but I think he’s the only person I’ve ever heard say that. ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/15 "2004-01-11T03:00:32Z")
**Tusculan** , I was actually responding to **lissener** ’s comment and we ended up simulposting. I assure you, if I had precognition I would be using it for more than just anticipating things that people will say on message boards. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/16 "2004-01-11T03:17:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinungaling \* > \*\* > **Edgar Munch:** _munk_ > [ \*\* Actually, it’s **Edvard** Munch. **Cartooniverse** - DAY-ko-pahjz (like the guys on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy say to “jhuzh” your shirtsleeves.) ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/17 "2004-01-11T04:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fessie \* > \*\*My HS art teacher always maintained that it’s called a **kill** , not a **kiln** , but I think he’s the only person I’ve ever heard say that. \*\* I certainly hope he didn’t consider himself a ceramicist … the “n” in “kiln” should definitely be audible, at least in the U.S. Incidentally, “kiln” is derived from the Latin “culina”. There’s a great article on the origin of ceramics terms [here](http://www.ceramicstoday.com/articles/why_throwing.htm) that’s worth a read for anyone remotely interested. To be really pedantic, when looking at the brightly colored, tin-glazed earthenware called “majolica”, be sure to pronounce it as “may-o-li-ca.” Even the appraisers on Antiques Roadshow mispronounce it with a “j” sound every so often. ---
**Author:** ![Earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/18 "2004-01-11T05:03:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LifeOnWry \* > **Cartooniverse - DAY-ko-pahjz (like the guys on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy say to “jhuzh” your shirtsleeves.)** Better yet, listen to a .WAV file of it being spoken: [decoupage](http://www.merriam-webster.com/sound/d/decoup01.wav), from [Merriam-Webster Online](http://www.m-w.com). **Shostakovich** : _shaw-stah-KO-vitch_ ([listen](http://www.merriam-webster.com/sound/bix/bixsho03.wav)) A new one: architect/designer **Marcel Breuer** : _broy-er_ (famous for the cantilevered chair, now much-reproduced). The Munch name isn’t yet done with generating confusion: There’s also the orchestra conductor **Charles Munch** , pronounced _sharl moonsh_ I need help on these architects: **Rem Koolhaas** **Herzog** and **Meuron** ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/19 "2004-01-11T08:29:13Z")
**Piet Mondriaan** is indeed pronounced roughly as _Pete_ (only the ‘e’ should be short, not drawn out, so in the direction of the English ‘Pit’). **Rem Koolhaas** is pronouned (by Dutch people at least) as (trying semi-phonetic) _Rem Kohlhahs_. The ‘oh’ is like in ‘bow’ or ‘dough’ (but without the ending ‘w’-sound). The ‘ah’ is like ‘calm’, but drawn-out longer. **Herzog** : the ‘e’ is like the ‘e’ in ‘red’, the ‘z’ like ‘ts’, the ‘o’ like the ‘o’ in ‘bow’, the ‘g’ is closest to a ‘k’, slightly softened. So _Hertsowk_. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-all-encompassing-art-pronunciation-thread/223854/20 "2004-01-11T08:32:14Z")
BTW, I do know Koolhaas is originally Dutch, but he’s been in the U.S. for so long that the Americans seem to have appropriated him (like Willem de Kooning).