# The alternative history of rock **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376 "2010-11-30T04:49:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/1 "2010-11-30T04:49:52Z")
The idea: if you were to compile/write about an “alternative” history to rock, which artists would you showcase? The criteria: It should be limited to artists who were not big in their own time - club acts, basically - though they may be seen as hugely important/influential/etc. in retrospect. No top 40 hits or stadium acts (so **The Clash** would fail on both counts, as would **Frank Zappa** on the former) - while lots of prog acts may not have received a lot of radio play, groups like **Rush** have been selling out tens-of-thousand seat venues for decades, so they aren’t eligibile. There are some acts I’ve left off, as they may have risen to stadium level ( **Ramones** , **Pixies** ) or charted on U.S. radio ( **XTC** ), though I’m not certain. Here’s my list so far - please add those you think belong (or argue about those I’ve chosen): **The Velvet Underground The Fugs The Stooges The New York Dolls Television Wire Black Flag The Feelies The Replacements Husker Du Minutemen Robyn Hitchcock Neutral Milk Hotel** ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/2 "2010-11-30T05:19:38Z")
Are we talking solely about the U.S. charts? I can think of groups like the Bonzo Dog Band who had great influence on other groups, but had a hit in the U.K. though never in the States. Kraftwerk had a minor U.S. hit with “Autobahn” and more chart success in Britain but created a whole genre. So did Hawkwind, who had some chart hits in the U.K. but far fewer than XTC, which also never charted in the U.S. On the flip side, Television had three minor hits in the U.K. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/3 "2010-11-30T05:33:13Z")
Hawkwind is a great choice. Yeah, no point in being too stringent with the criteria - Kraftwerk and XTC and the Bonzos surely deserve a place on the list (as do, IMO, the Ramones). Let’s just say no superstars/radio staples/classic rock mainstays. ---
**Author:** ![Monkey\_Chews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Monkey\_Chews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monkey_Chews)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/4 "2010-11-30T06:18:26Z")
Would **Big Star** qualify? I’m not really up on what their US chart or touring success was like, or what level of touring they got to, but I get the impression that their legacy and influence have far outshone the recognition they received in their day. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/5 "2010-11-30T06:19:13Z")
Hell yes! Meant to include them in my list. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/6 "2010-11-30T06:38:43Z")
I’m not exactly sure what criteria you have in mind, but I think some of these should fit: **Gang of Four** **Joy Division** **Neu!** **My Bloody Valentine** **The Jam** **The Soft Boys** **Roxy Music** **The Slits** ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/7 "2010-11-30T06:40:00Z")
What? No love for **the Holy Modal Rounders**? **the Roches** deserve a mention. As do **Art of Noise**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/8 "2010-11-30T06:52:34Z")
One that comes to mind from Australia, and that had a strong influence both on Aussie music and on quite a few later artists overseas, is **Radio Birdman**. These guys weren’t even a club act; Sydney clubs and bars refused to book them, so they got their own place. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/9 "2010-11-30T08:43:49Z")
More krautrock: **Can Faust** More Australian: **The Birthday Party The Saints** More extremely determined and weird people: **The Fall Captain Beefheart** More influential 90s bands: **Slint Fugazi** Proto punk / influential: **Pere Ubu The Monks** ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/10 "2010-11-30T10:22:54Z")
They had minor success but I’d include **Love** , **13th Floor Elevators** and **The United States of America**. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/11 "2010-11-30T12:38:19Z")
How about the **Triffids** , from Australia, who never quite broke through into mass recognition but had a lot of success in the the UK ‘indie’ charts in the mid-80s with the lp _Born Sandy Devotional_. Or maybe **X** , although they were pretty big in the US West Coast punk scene And, of course, **Van der Graaf Generator** , prog rock’s weirdos whose reputation continues to grow And oh, yeah, don’t forget **Yello** with their swathes of electronic noise from Boris Blank and Deiter Meier’s vocals. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/12 "2010-11-30T14:42:45Z")
If you read existing “alternative histories of rock” many of the bands mentioned so far are listed. - \*\*Please Kill Me: An Uncensored Oral History of Punk \*\*starts pre-punk with the Velvets and Doors and moves through the MC5, Stooges and then the NY Scene. - \*\*From the Velvets to the Voidoids \*\*covers the Cleveland and Detroit punk scenes and lots of other diy type bands. - \*\*Our Band Could Be Your Life \*\*covers one band per chapter from Black Flag to Minor Threat, Mission of Burma, Beat Happening, The Minutemen - really great stuff. A bunch of other good books on alt/indie bands out there. For post-punk UK, try **Rip it Up and Start Again** , which moves from UK punk to bands like Gang of Four, Scritti Politti, PiL, etc…although I didn’t find that book to be all that well-written. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/13 "2010-11-30T15:16:57Z")
I don’t quite know what the right exact bands are, but I think you’re missing representatives from the proto-ska-punk scene. **The Specials** and **Madness** probably both had chart hits, but I’m sure there’s an influential non-charting band from that scene or later in the US. (In the Northeast, I might nominate\*\* Bim Skala Bim\*\* who helped build the late 80’s and 90’s ska scene in the Boston area, but I don’t think they really had worldwide influence). For that matter, did **Toots and the Maytals** ever chart high enough or play big enough venues to be disqualified? They pretty much invented ska to begin with. And, moving on, I might suggest **Phil Ochs** , if folk counts. Oh, and **Robert Johnson** is pretty darn influential, and never played stadiums or had a top-25 hit. Not that he had the chance, but kind of fits the spirit of the OP, I think. In that vein, I don’t know if John Mayall’s **Bluesbreakers** fit the OP. Not that the band really did anything noteworthy itself, but it launched quite a few careers, so in that sense it was important. (I guess continuing in that direction we’d get to the **Quarrymen** and various other early incarnations of bands that later got Top 25 hits, but let’s not go there) ---
**Author:** ![Mixolydian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Mixolydian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mixolydian)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/14 "2010-11-30T15:21:49Z")
**Professor Longhair The Meters Moby Grape The Minutemen NRBQ** ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/15 "2010-11-30T15:43:48Z")
Well, I would think the Residents should make the list. Also the Blues Project (unless “Flute Thing” was a hit, but I don’t think it was). In the area of prog rock, some contenders are Soft Machine, Caravan, and Gong. Also King Crimson unless you consider them too big. From the West Coast scene – maybe the Charlatans, Sons of Champlin, and Love. From Britain – Blues Incorporated, the Graham Bond Organisation, and maybe the Pretty Things, the Move, and Creation (those last three weren’t big in the States, but maybe were too big in the UK to qualify). Bibilography: Unterberger, R. _Unknown Legends of Rock & Roll._ Unterberger, R. _Urban Spacemen and Wayfaring Strangers._ ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/16 "2010-11-30T15:46:53Z")
**Delany and Bonnie and Friends**. Without them, no Layla. (Technically, they did play big venues, but as an opening act.) **Spirit**. I’d say they were at least as influential as **Big Star** , and _The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus_ is one of the top 20 rock albums of all time. **Soft Machine**. Integrated rock with jazz and were the leaders of the Canterbury scene of progressive rock. **Taj Mahal**. Pretty much the founder of the roots blues movement. Robert Johnson was a great pioneer, as were other acoustic blues performers, but his style was passe until Taj took it up and worked to popularize it and he influenced people like Keb’ Mo’ strongly. There’s also the Chess Records crew. Technically,\*\* Howlin’ Wolf \*\*never had a mainstream single hit (“Smokestack Lightning” reached #2 on the R&B charts, but that’s not the same thing). His vocal style is ubiquitous. **Muddy Waters** is in the same position: R&B hits, but nothing mainstream. You cannot overstate his influence on rock. **Willie Dixon** was in a similar position for most of his career, yet his songs are covered by everyone. **Little Walter** influenced every harmonica player after him and though he was a big R&B star, he was unknown to the mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/17 "2010-11-30T16:10:03Z")
Nitpick, but wouldn’t it be the “History of Alternative Rock” rather than the “Alternative History of Rock” (which could, conceivably, be a book about ‘what if rock had gone in another direction’)? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/18 "2010-11-30T16:17:48Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Nitpick, but wouldn’t it be the “History of Alternative Rock” rather than the “Alternative History of Rock” (which could, conceivably, be a book about **‘what if rock had gone in another direction’** )? That would be the Counterfactual History of Rock. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/19 "2010-11-30T17:01:32Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not exactly sure what criteria you have in mind, but I think some of these should fit: > > **Gang of Four** > **Joy Division** > **Neu!** > **My Bloody Valentine** > **The Jam** > **The Soft Boys** > **Roxy Music** > **The Slits** Roxy Music is like Madness and Status Quo. One-hit wonders in the U.S. but giant hit machines in the U.K. Roxy had ten top 10 hits; Madness 15; Status Quo 22! ---
**Author:** ![SykoSkotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@SykoSkotty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SykoSkotty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376/20 "2010-11-30T17:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > The criteria: It should be limited to artists who were not big in their own time - club acts, basically - though they may be seen as hugely important/influential/etc. in retrospect Based on this (and I’m shocked no one listed them yet) I have to give the nod to the **Sex Pistols.** They were not big in their own time, most likely because it was so brief, but hugely influential in the American punk scene that developed after their demise. Sure, they’re popular now, because of their history and the whole Sid/Nancy thing, but during their one and only American tour, they played dive bars and strip joints, and no one understood what they were witnessing at the time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-alternative-history-of-rock/562376.md?page=2)