# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/181 "2014-12-23T19:03:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Then we’re good. Because they didn’t. Of course they did. Do you think Garner would be alive or dead today if the police hadn’t “restrained” him with a chokehold whose use is banned by the NYPD? I do not understand all this sidestepping that he really died because he is out of shape or a “fat fuck” or asthma or whatever. Do you think any of that would matter if I choked you? Do you think if I choked you to the point you had a heart attack that my defense could reasonably be that you’re a fat ass so it’s not really my fault (not saying you are, just pretending for the sake of argument)? Hell, you could have a terminal, inoperable lung cancer and have been given a week to live and it will still be murder if I choke you to the point that your weakened body succumbed. It doesn’t matter that your condition made you more susceptible. Even the coroner called it murder. No matter how you slice it that cop killed Garner. If the cop hadn’t done that Garner would almost certainly be alive today. Apparently some people think that’s ok. I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/182 "2014-12-23T19:05:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Even the coroner called it murder. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/183 "2014-12-23T19:08:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Homicide then. > [@](#): > > **HOMICIDE: Medical examiner says NYPD chokehold killed Staten Island dad Eric Garner** > > Eric Garner, the Staten Island dad who complained that he couldn’t breathe as he was subdued by cops, died from compression of the neck, the medical examiner said Friday. > > SOURCE: [HOMICIDE: Medical examiner says NYPD chokehold killed Staten Island dad Eric Garner – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/eric-garner-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/184 "2014-12-23T19:12:38Z")
It’s illuminating to contrast the thought of progressives – those of us who support humanity – with that of right-wingers. No matter how odious governance may be, dunces like **Bricker** and **Smapti** are eager to blame “the people” for failures in our “democracy,” when it suits them. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not the cops’ fault that the people vote so many laws into effect that they have to enforce. If you’re saying that the cops should ignore the will of the people and decide not to enforce “minor” laws, then you’re effectively giving them veto power over the entire democratic process and making them a super-legislature unto themselves. [sarcasm]Yes, New Yorkers went to the polls and asked the NYPD to murder anyone selling loosies. And the 'people think 17,000 pages of fdederal crimes aren’t enough; we want another 5000 pages.[/sarcasm] “Democratic process”? What incompetent thought! What do you guys think of the “purple finger” shams in Iraqistan, **Bricki\_Smapt**? Welcome to Ameriqistan. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/185 "2014-12-23T19:46:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Homicide then. Yes, you quoted the New York Daily news , which dumbed down the actual ruling which was “On August 1, Garner’s death was found by the New York City Medical Examiner’s Office to be a result of “compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”[24] Asthma, heart disease, and obesity were cited as contributing factors.” And if a cop kills a suspect while that suspect is in the middle of gunning down a whole busload of orphans it’s still “homicide”. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/186 "2014-12-23T19:51:21Z")
ALL of the cop apologists, here and in the media, etc., are _consistently_ making one major (and deliberate?) blunder in their arguments w.r.t. Garner: Insisting that the choke-hold (or whatever you want to call it) didn’t kill him; that Garner’s own infirmities did. And I haven’t seen anyone calling them out on it yet, either; neither here nor anywhere else. You’re forgetting or overlooking or ignoring (and don’t try to tell me you aren’t aware of) [_the thin skull principle_](http://bc-injury-law.com/blog/tag/take-your-victim-as-you-find-them) or “you takes 'em [the victim] as you finds 'em”. > [@blog by Erik Magraken](#): > > If you are injured through the fault of another in a BC motor vehicle accident and are an average person and receive average injuries you are entitled to be compensated for these. What if you are not an average person? What if you are particularly prone to traumatic injury? Would you be entitled to your actual damages or only those damages that the average person should have received? The answer is actual damages. > > There is a principle in law known as the ‘thin skull‘ principle sometimes referred to as the ‘you take your victim as you find them‘ principle. If a person is careless and that carelessness causes injury it is no defence to say that the victim was particularly prone to injury or that the injury would have been less if the victim was tougher. So long as the injuries are real and related to the wrongdoing the injued party will be entitled to their fair damages. Let’s not hear any more of idiotic “the cops didn’t kill him, his asthma did” argument. That’s just arrant nonsense, up with which we need not put. (Whether it’s murder or manslaughter or merely homicide is a _separate_ argument.) (Ye gods, have I posted something cogent in a Pit thread? May the Mods forgive me.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/187 "2014-12-23T20:39:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Homicide then. > **[Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide'](https://time.com/3618279/eric-garner-chokehold-crime-staten-island-daniel-pantaleo/)** > > When medical examiners use the word "homicide," it doesn't have the same meaning as when the rest of us say it. On Aug. 1, a New York City medical examiner determined that the cause of death in the Garner case was “homicide,” specifically the neck compressions from the Pantaleo’s chokehold and “the compression of [Garner’s] chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,” according to spokeswoman, Julie Bolcer. But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says. So in a medical examiner’s report “homicide” just means one person intentionally did something that led to the death of someone else. It doesn’t mean the death was intentional and it doesn’t mean it was a crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/188 "2014-12-23T20:45:53Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > ALL of the cop apologists, here and in the media, etc., are _consistently_ making one major (and deliberate?) blunder in their arguments w.r.t. Garner: Insisting that the choke-hold (or whatever you want to call it) didn’t kill him; that Garner’s own infirmities did. A combinations of things and a string of bad decisions and errors caused his death. If he had not been a career (mostly petty) criminal with some 30 arrests- not dead. if he had accepted being handcuffed as had occurred many times before- no death. and so forth. Yes, one of the main causes was the way the police restrained him. Necessary? Maybe. Perhaps not. He was a huge guy, with a history of violent crime. He was known to the officers. He was resisting arrest. He was out on bail. But they did not intend to kill him. There didnt appear to be any racist motives (_“The arrest was supervised by NYPD Sargeant Kizzy Adoni, a female African American, who did not intercede.”_) Certainly a error, and one that caused a death. But a error in the line of duty. And one error in a chain of tragic errors, including several by the Garner. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/189 "2014-12-23T21:07:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So in a medical examiner’s report “homicide” just means one person intentionally did something that led to the death of someone else. It doesn’t mean the death was intentional and it doesn’t mean it was a crime. The cops intentionally put him into a choke-hold. The choke-hold and associated compressions to his neck and chest resulted in his death. In plain English, they killed him. Presumably they _accidentally_ killed him, but they killed him nonetheless. How is this fact controversial? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/190 "2014-12-23T21:11:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Certainly a error, and one that caused a death. But a error in the line of duty. And one error in a chain of tragic errors, including several by the Garner. Dang, trouble with definite and indefinite [articles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_article) much? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/191 "2014-12-23T21:21:11Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > The cops intentionally put him into a choke-hold. The choke-hold and associated compressions to his neck and chest resulted in his death. In plain English, they killed him. Presumably they _accidentally_ killed him, but they killed him nonetheless. How is this fact controversial? Why are you bringing it up? People bring it up as it’s semantically loaded and full of bad connotations. You could just as well say he caused his own death by resisting arrest. It was a chain of events. Each link in the chain led to the next. You cant fairly blame one link as the sole cause. This case has many “facts”. Garner was a violent criminal out on bail. He was committing a crime. This caused a arrest. He resisted a peaceful arrest. This caused a take down by a police officer. The take down caused him to choke due to medical conditions. The choking caused his death. Many\* facts\*, many _causes_. Not saying the police were without error here. But I cant see anything they did which was criminal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/192 "2014-12-23T21:25:42Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Dang, trouble with definite and indefinite [articles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29#Definite_article) much? The last resort of a man without a good reasoned argument- personal attacks and a pointing out of a minor typographical error. Yes, congratulations you pedantic pissant! YOU FOUND A TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR ON A MESSAGE BOARD POST!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: YOU WIN TEH INTERWEBS!!! :rolleyes::dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/193 "2014-12-23T21:30:43Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > The cops intentionally put him into a choke-hold. The choke-hold and associated compressions to his neck and chest resulted in his death. In plain English, they killed him. Presumably they _accidentally_ killed him, but they killed him nonetheless. How is this fact controversial? Simple - I watched the video. He’s in a chokehold for a few seconds (7?) - the time it takes to get him on the ground. Once he’s on the ground, the chokehold is released. That is when he is placed prone on the ground and starts saying that he can’t breathe. Since the coroner report could find no damage to his neck, once the chokehold was taken off, it wasn’t the chokehold that made him feel like he can’t breathe. It was the prone positioning (which you didn’t mention, but that is what the coroner’s report says) combined with his obesity and asthma. The simple fact is that there is no chokehold on the man when he is complaining about his breath, and there was no damage to his neck that the chokehold caused. In plain English, yes they killed him. Yet I can see how it could not be considered a crime. People who are outraged seem to somehow believe that every time someone is killed, it just MUST be a crime. That is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/194 "2014-12-23T21:35:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So in a medical examiner’s report “homicide” just means one person intentionally did something that led to the death of someone else. It doesn’t mean the death was intentional and it doesn’t mean it was a crime.[/INDENT] It may not be a crime but it is intentional. What the officer did to Garner was intentional without doubt, it was against NYPD policy and it was the proximate cause of Garner’s death. Coroner says so. Was the officer justified? Some here like you think he was. I submit he wasn’t. What exactly was Garner going to do to resist arrest if the police just stood there and waited a few seconds for him to chill out? As you and others point out Garner was woefully out of shape. Was he going to run? Was he going to hurt others? No and no. Apparently for you though police overreaction is just fine with the slightest provocation. I’d rather not live in your world. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/195 "2014-12-23T21:38:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It may not be a crime but it is intentional. What the officer did to Garner was intentional without doubt, it was against NYPD policy and it was the proximate cause of Garner’s death. Coroner says so. Well, at least you’re not claiming that the coroner says it was murder anymore. The action was intentional. The death wasn’t. And no, it was not “the proximate cause”. It was one of three, from coroner’s report, one of which was “prone positioning”. Why are you not complaining that Garner was “prone positioned to death”? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/196 "2014-12-23T21:49:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You could just as well say he caused his own death by resisting arrest. It was a chain of events. Each link in the chain led to the next. You cant fairly blame one link as the sole cause. Yes, I guess in an Alan Watts sort of way, there’s not really any such thing as a “discrete” event, is there? I mean, you could just as well say that the assassination of Abraham Lincoln was really more of a compound event… without the going to the theater, no assassination, right? It was a chain of events. No one link as the sole cause. > [@](#): > > Why are you bringing it up? People bring it up as it’s semantically loaded and full of bad connotations. Scenario 1: A man is arrested by police and taken to the precinct. While in the holding cell, he is generously offered a ham sandwich, on which he chokes and dies. He died in police custody and would probably not have died had he not been in police custody. However, the police plainly didn’t kill him. Scenario 2: A man is arrested by police using methods of such force that he is killed in the process. In plain English, the police inadvertently kill the man in the process of arresting him. It’s relevant to a discussion of the Eric Garner case whether his was more like Scenario 1 or more like Scenario 2. Sorry if you think a plain English description of what occurred has bad connotations. Are you starting to see what the fuss is about? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/197 "2014-12-23T21:50:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The last resort of a man without a good reasoned argument- personal attacks and a pointing out of a minor typographical error. Welcome to the Dope! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/198 "2014-12-23T21:54:59Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Scenario 1: A man is arrested by police and taken to the precinct. While in the holding cell, he is generously offered a ham sandwich, on which he chokes and dies. He died in police custody and would probably not have died had he not been in police custody. However, the police plainly didn’t kill him. > > Scenario 2: A man is arrested by police using methods of such force that he is killed in the process. In plain English, the police inadvertently kill the man in the process of arresting him. > > It’s relevant to a discussion of the Eric Garner case whether his was more like Scenario 1 or more like Scenario 2. The ham sandwich, the DA could indict. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/199 "2014-12-23T22:07:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The action was intentional. The death wasn’t. And no, it was not “the proximate cause”. It was one of three, from coroner’s report, one of which was “prone positioning”. Why are you not complaining that Garner was “prone positioned to death”? Fine, that and chest compression were the proximate causes: > [@](#): > > The New York City medical examiner announced on Friday that a Staten Island man died from a chokehold and the compression of his chest by police officers as they arrested him last month for allegedly peddling untaxed cigarettes. > > An autopsy found that the manner of death for Eric Garner, 43, was homicide, the medical examiner said in a statement. While the report found that Mr. Garner’s poor health was a contributing factor, it was not the primary cause of his death. > > SOURCE: [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/nyregion/staten-island-man-died-from-officers-chokehold-autopsy-finds.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/nyregion/staten-island-man-died-from-officers-chokehold-autopsy-finds.html?_r=0) If you choked me and I died do you think “prone positioning” or my bad health would mitigate your culpability? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/200 "2014-12-23T22:16:08Z")
The US term is [“eggshell skull”.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull) > [@](#): > > This rule holds one liable for all consequences resulting from his or her tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as that of the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person’s head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury. > > In criminal law, the general maxim is that the defendant must “take their victims as they find them”, a quotation from the judgment of Lord Justice Lawton in R v. Blaue (1975), in which the defendant was held responsible for killing his victim, despite his contention that her refusal of a blood transfusion constituted novus actus interveniens. Short version: Garner’s health is no excuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=11)