# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/201 "2014-12-23T22:33:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Fine, that and chest compression were the proximate causes: NYT’s quote from the coroner’s report is not complete. As I pointed out, there was no chokehold on Garner after he was taken down, and there was no damage to his neck. So it is much more probable that it was being held prone, combined with his obesity and asthma, that killed him. But “prone-positioned to death” just doesn’t have that ring to it, does it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/202 "2014-12-24T01:01:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > NYT’s quote from the coroner’s report is not complete. As I pointed out, there was no chokehold on Garner after he was taken down, and there was no damage to his neck. So it is much more probable that it was being held prone, combined with his obesity and asthma, that killed him. But “prone-positioned to death” just doesn’t have that ring to it, does it? According to the ME, neck and chest pressure contributed to his death. If this was just a gang attack from a bunch of dudes dressed like police officers, with an identical video, there’d be no question that they killed him – even if they didn’t mean to. It’s not different because they’re cops. The cops killed Garner. If they weren’t cops, but the video was identical, and it was just a gang dressed like cops, then this gang killed Garner. Does anyone honestly disagree with this? It might be reasonable to argue that the cops’ actions were justified. But it seems totally ridiculous to argue that the cops didn’t kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/203 "2014-12-24T01:03:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Why a Medical Examiner Called Eric Garner's Death a 'Homicide' | TIME](http://time.com/3618279/eric-garner-chokehold-crime-staten-island-daniel-pantaleo/) > > On Aug. 1, a New York City medical examiner determined that the cause of death in the Garner case was “homicide,” specifically the neck compressions from the Pantaleo’s chokehold and “the compression of [Garner’s] chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police,” according to spokeswoman, Julie Bolcer. > > But “homicide” in this context doesn’t mean what you think. It’s one of five categories medical examiners use to label causes of death and it indicates that “someone’s intentional actions led to the death of another person,” says Gregory G. Davis, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners. The other four labels are suicide, accident, natural, and undetermined, Davis says. > > So in a medical examiner’s report “homicide” just means one person intentionally did something that led to the death of someone else. It doesn’t mean the death was intentional and it doesn’t mean it was a crime. So now you agree that Officer Pantaleo caused Mr. Garner’s death, aye? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/204 "2014-12-24T01:04:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > NYT’s quote from the coroner’s report is not complete. As I pointed out, there was no chokehold on Garner after he was taken down, and there was no damage to his neck. So it is much more probable that it was being held prone, combined with his obesity and asthma, that killed him. But “prone-positioned to death” just doesn’t have that ring to it, does it? Did you examine Mr. Garner’s corpse? Or are you just making shit up? Never mind, we already know that you’re jus making shit up; it’s what you do: make the world shittier. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/205 "2014-12-24T01:06:47Z")
. > [@Terr](#): > > In plain English, yes they killed him. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/206 "2014-12-24T01:08:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the ME, neck and chest pressure contributed to his death. > > If this was just a gang attack from a bunch of dudes dressed like police officers, with an identical video, there’d be no question that they killed him – even if they didn’t mean to. It’s not different because they’re cops. The cops killed Garner. If they weren’t cops, but the video was identical, and it was just a gang dressed like cops, then this gang killed Garner. Does anyone honestly disagree with this? > > It might be reasonable to argue that the cops’ actions were justified. But it seems totally ridiculous to argue that the cops didn’t kill him. I missed the **Terr** post saying that “in plain English” the cops killed Garner. So at least I know that he agrees on this point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/207 "2014-12-24T01:11:05Z")
His point seems to be that “choked to death” is an exaggeration. The “choke” part maybe, but not the death part, can’t exaggerate that, he’s as dead as he’s gonna get. Tone has a lot to do with it, you guys are saying it like its a _bad_ thing. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/208 "2014-12-24T01:32:31Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > …When you accused **BobLibDem** of making a strawman, was it intended as praise? It was a strawman. However, I have nothing but praise for **BobLibDem**. While I don’t agree with his politics, he doesn’t chose to act like a bully or some petulant internet asshole. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/209 "2014-12-24T01:55:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So now you agree that Officer Pantaleo caused Mr. Garner’s death, aye? Police didn’t strangle Garner to death. That seems simple enough. Garner was repeatedly able to say, “I can’t breathe”. That’s a pretty good indication that Garner was able to breathe. _In goes the good air, out goes the bad air. Repeat_. There were many health issues that contributed to Garner’s death. Garner made many bad decisions that ultimately led to his death but Garner did not commit suicide, either. Police were not aware of Garner’s poor health. Pepper spray may have produced the same result if it had been used to subdue Garner??? idk. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/210 "2014-12-24T02:08:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Police didn’t strangle Garner to death. That seems simple enough. Garner was repeatedly able to say, “I can’t breathe”. That’s a pretty good indication that Garner was able to breathe. _In goes the good air, out goes the bad air. Repeat_. > > There were many health issues that contributed to Garner’s death. Garner made many bad decisions that ultimately led to his death but Garner did not commit suicide, either. Police were not aware of Garner’s poor health. Pepper spray may have produced the same result if it had been used to subdue Garner??? idk. Have you ever kicked a guy’s ass before? I have… not proud to say it, but I have. But when the guy said “I can’t breathe”, I backed off, not because I’m a medical expert or an especially merciful person… but the guy couldn’t breathe, and I wasn’t out to kill anybody. Just my own anecdote of course. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/211 "2014-12-24T02:21:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Police didn’t strangle Garner to death. That seems simple enough. Garner was repeatedly able to say, “I can’t breathe”. That’s a pretty good indication that Garner was able to breathe. _In goes the good air, out goes the bad air. Repeat_. That’s not true. I’m asthmatic (not that bad nowadays, but it used to be severe enough to require medication), and if you choke me, once I begin struggling for air, an attack can start. I know you think you have some brilliant insight, because you figured out that if he could talk, presumably air could get in and out of his lungs, but you’re simply wrong. A body has a demand for air. You can lower the supply by restricting his airflow. If the supply doesn’t meet demand (especially if the demand is heightened by fear or physical exertion) you start to get into distress. Once an asthmatic has trouble breathing, he or she needs to sit quietly and focus on breathing. If you’re in a panic because some dipshit is choking you, you’ll just lose air faster. Personally, I’ve had such trouble breathing that all I could do was hunch over to make it easier to draw breath. I couldn’t even lay down. If you did anything to me that would make me require more air, well it wouldn’t have been great for me, since I was barely getting enough. But, I doubt you’ll accept this, since you seem to have a partisan desire to rah-rah the cops and cluck dismissively at the victim. Just food for thought for those that aren’t immune to persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/212 "2014-12-24T02:35:05Z")
I’m not immune to persuasion, more like an allergic reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/213 "2014-12-24T02:45:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the ME, neck and chest pressure contributed to his death. And “prone positioning”. > [@](#): > > If this was just a gang attack from a bunch of dudes dressed like police officers, with an identical video, there’d be no question that they killed him – even if they didn’t mean to. Cops are allowed actions that non-cops aren’t. If you try to arrest someone, you’d be up for kidnapping and assault. Cops wouldn’t be. Do you think they should be? > [@](#): > > It might be reasonable to argue that the cops’ actions were justified. But it seems totally ridiculous to argue that the cops didn’t kill him. Who did that? Yes, cops did. Not intentionally. And, IMO, not because of the chokehold, as I explained. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/214 "2014-12-24T02:46:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m not immune to persuasion, more like an allergic reaction. I’d be more persuadable if I didn’t try to initially base my opinions on facts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/215 "2014-12-24T02:46:12Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Have you ever kicked a guy’s ass before? I have… not proud to say it, but I have. But when the guy said “I can’t breathe”, I backed off, not because I’m a medical expert or an especially merciful person… but the guy couldn’t breathe, and I wasn’t out to kill anybody. > > Just my own anecdote of course. Are you referring to some kind of fair fight? Something with rules and maybe a referee? Street fights have no rules. I was told a very long time ago that you beat them until you are tired, not until they give up. Apparently, criminals and seasoned street fighters have been know to lie on occasion and complain about non-existent injuries (which would include breathing difficulties) in order to get you to relax and drop your guard. Then they resume their attack and gain the upper hand. On the plus side, maybe they won’t stab you after you’ve lost. Garner said, “I can’t breathe” eleven different times. That doesn’t sound like he actually couldn’t breathe. The take down had already begun. The take down would stop when Garner was in handcuffs. Garner chose to resist arrest. Garner lost. Garner made the wrong choice. The grand jury had access to the actual medical report and the actual police reports. Those, along with the forensic evidence, did not lead the grand jury to indict. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/216 "2014-12-24T02:50:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Have you ever kicked a guy’s ass before? I have… not proud to say it, but I have. But when the guy said “I can’t breathe”, I backed off, not because I’m a medical expert or an especially merciful person… but the guy couldn’t breathe, and I wasn’t out to kill anybody. > > Just my own anecdote of course. The policemen were not there to kick his ass. They were arresting him. He was resisting arrest. At the time he was saying that he can’t breathe, there was no chokehold anymore. He was lying on the ground, in prone position. He was “prone-positioned to death”. The coroner report says there was no throat damage. Do explain how that chokehold managed to kill him while it was not applied and didn’t cause any throat damage. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/217 "2014-12-24T02:51:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Once an asthmatic has trouble breathing, he or she needs to sit quietly and focus on breathing. If you’re in a panic because some dipshit is choking you, you’ll just lose air faster. Again, at the time he was complaining that he couldn’t breathe, no one was choking him. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/218 "2014-12-24T02:55:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, at the time he was complaining that he couldn’t breathe, no one was choking him. So? The chokehold restricted his airflow, creating a deficit in air that he needed. Once started, that deficit, is only gonna be paid if he gets to rest. So what does the fact that he may not have been choked when he said the words have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/219 "2014-12-24T02:56:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s not true. I’m asthmatic (not that bad nowadays, but it used to be severe enough to require medication), and if you choke me, once I begin struggling for air, an attack can start. > > I know you think you have some brilliant insight, because you figured out that if he could talk, presumably air could get in and out of his lungs, but you’re simply wrong. A body has a demand for air. You can lower the supply by restricting his airflow. If the supply doesn’t meet demand (especially if the demand is heightened by fear or physical exertion) you start to get into distress. > > Once an asthmatic has trouble breathing, he or she needs to sit quietly and focus on breathing. If you’re in a panic because some dipshit is choking you, you’ll just lose air faster. > > Personally, I’ve had such trouble breathing that all I could do was hunch over to make it easier to draw breath. I couldn’t even lay down. If you did anything to me that would make me require more air, well it wouldn’t have been great for me, since I was barely getting enough. > > But, I doubt you’ll accept this, since you seem to have a partisan desire to rah-rah the cops and cluck dismissively at the victim. Just food for thought for those that aren’t immune to persuasion. Are you saying that you COULD NOT physically resist an arrest if you were experiencing such an episode? Would your sitting quietly while you focus on your breathing be apparent to the officers who were trying to arrest you? Did you have anything else or was that your idea of persuasion? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/220 "2014-12-24T02:59:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So? The chokehold restricted his airflow, creating a deficit in air that he needed. Once started, that deficit, is only gonna be paid if he gets to rest. > > So what does the fact that he may not have been choked when he said the words have to do with anything? He wasn’t being choked. That’s the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=12)