# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/221 "2014-12-24T03:05:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So? The chokehold restricted his airflow, creating a deficit in air that he needed. Once started, that deficit, is only gonna be paid if he gets to rest. > > So what does the fact that he may not have been choked when he said the words have to do with anything? Because you and others keep claiming that he was “choked to death”. That’s factually incorrect. The chokehold was applied for a few seconds needed to get him down to the ground. Afterwards it was released and he was placed in the prone position. That is when he started complaining about not being able to breathe. Claiming that he was “choked to death” is a lie that keeps being repeated because it sounds so much more grave than “being prone-positioned to death” (which is what actually happened). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/222 "2014-12-24T03:08:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you saying that you COULD NOT physically resist an arrest if you were experiencing such an episode? Would your sitting quietly while you focus on your breathing be apparent to the officers who were trying to arrest you? No. I’m saying that when you can’t breathe, having two or three huffing retards manhandle you isn’t going to let you breathe. > [@](#): > > Did you have anything else or was that your idea of persuasion? As I said, you’re too ideological and unthinking to persuade. I’m attempting to help those who are able to reason. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/223 "2014-12-24T03:10:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because you and others keep claiming that he was “choked to death”. That’s factually incorrect. The chokehold was applied for a few seconds needed to get him down to the ground. Afterwards it was released and he was placed in the prone position. That is when he started complaining about not being able to breathe. Claiming that he was “choked to death” is a lie that keeps being repeated because it sounds so much more grave than “being prone-positioned to death” (which is what actually happened). If he was just pulled to the ground, he might have survived. The chokehold is what started him having trouble breathing. I agree, he wasn’t choked until he died. But he was choked, and it contributed to his dying. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/224 "2014-12-24T03:13:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If he was just pulled to the ground, he might have survived. The chokehold is what started him having trouble breathing. **I agree, he wasn’t choked until he died.** But he was choked, and it contributed to his dying. He was in a chokehold for a few seconds. He wasn’t “choked to death”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/225 "2014-12-24T03:21:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He was in a chokehold for a few seconds. He wasn’t “choked to death”. I agree he wasn’t _choked to death_. He was choked, and then not allowed to recover, and died. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/226 "2014-12-24T03:30:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > **I agree he wasn’t _choked to death_**. He was choked, and then not allowed to recover, and died. Agreed. Now tell that to **BobLibDem** and **Elvis**. He resisted arrest, was put in a chokehold and taken to the ground, then the chokehold was released and he was held on the ground in a prone position, where, due to his obesity and asthma, he died. I can see how the grand jury may decide that there was no crime committed, thus no probable cause for a trial. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/227 "2014-12-24T03:42:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He … was held on the ground in a prone position, where, due to his obesity and asthma, he died. Time to let it go, son. ---
**Author:** ![agilpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@agilpro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agilpro)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/228 "2014-12-24T03:51:41Z")
'The fault for the shooting of the NY cops falls on those around the shooter who knew he wasn’t behaving rationally but didn’t contact authorities until it was to late. You can blame the mayor, the Governor of NY, Obama, Putin of Russia, anyone you want but the fault lies on those peoples shoulders who knew something was wrong with this guy and did nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/229 "2014-12-24T03:53:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Agreed. Now tell that to **BobLibDem** and **Elvis**. > > He resisted arrest, was put in a chokehold and taken to the ground, then the chokehold was released and he was held on the ground in a prone position, where, due to his obesity and asthma, he died. I can see how the grand jury may decide that there was no crime committed, thus no probable cause for a trial. Personally, I see the people who didn’t allow him to recover as responsible for the death. Not his obesity and asthma. The forbidden chokehold started the ball rolling. And because the cops didn’t let up, that ball took him right over the line into death. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/230 "2014-12-24T04:08:02Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No. I’m saying that when you can’t breathe, having two or three huffing retards manhandle you isn’t going to let you breathe. > > As I said, you’re too ideological and unthinking to persuade. I’m attempting to help those who are able to reason. Are you saying that you would have been physically unable to resist arrest if you could not breathe? Persuade who? The guy who murdered two NYPD cops simply because they were cops and believed that since cops choked Garner to death it would be OK kill any or all cops? Or maybe the NY, hammer-carrying, professor who thought he was justified to throw trashcans from a bridge onto the cops below because Garner had been choked to death? Or the six protesters who thought it was OK to kick and punch cops because they were arresting the hammer-carrying prof (aka one more criminal) and Garner had been choked to death? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/231 "2014-12-24T04:11:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Time to let it go, son. You wouldn’t be attempting to end the discussion because you’ve run out of argument, would you? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/232 "2014-12-24T04:17:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Personally, I see the people who didn’t allow him to recover as responsible for the death. Not his obesity and asthma. > > The forbidden chokehold started the ball rolling. And because the cops didn’t let up, that ball took him right over the line into death. The decision to resist arrest started the ball rolling. Why didn’t Garner listen to the protesters and put his HANDS UP? Didn’t he believe the protesters? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/233 "2014-12-24T04:22:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The decision to resist arrest started the ball rolling. Why didn’t Garner listen to the protesters and put his HANDS UP? Didn’t he believe the protesters? Like I said, you aren’t able to think. You’re a machine burbbling out stuff in furtherance of your ideology. The fact that you’re vapid enough to think that what you wrote is telling, is evidence enough. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/234 "2014-12-24T04:26:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Just because **we are outraged over the police choking a man to death over cigarettes** doesn’t mean that we can’t condemn cops being executed. Except, of course, that that didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/235 "2014-12-24T04:30:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you saying that you would have been physically unable to resist arrest if you could not breathe? No, probably the opposite. If I was having an episode, and men were keeping me from breathing, I’d be in full panic mode. So would you. > [@](#): > > Persuade who? The guy who murdered two NYPD cops simply because they were cops and believed that since cops choked Garner to death it would be OK kill any or all cops? Did I say that? You’re just flailing around looking for anything you can hurl around. > [@](#): > > Or maybe the NY, hammer-carrying, professor who thought he was justified to throw trashcans from a bridge onto the cops below because Garner had been choked to death? Again, your inability to think is making you confabulate all sorts of things. > [@](#): > > Or the six protesters who thought it was OK to kick and punch cops because they were arresting the hammer-carrying prof (aka one more criminal) and Garner had been choked to death? Again, you fumble. You’re not even arguing. You’re just farting out nonsense and imagining that you’re winning. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/236 "2014-12-24T04:32:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The forbidden chokehold started the ball rolling. And because the cops didn’t let up, that ball took him right over the line into death. Resisting arrest started the boll rolling. And once the cops are attempting to arrest you and you’re physically resisting arrest, the cops do not “let up”. And are not supposed to “let up”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/237 "2014-12-24T04:33:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Except, of course, that that didn’t happen. If they didn’t choke him, he’d likely be alive. If they didn’t restrain him while he was gasping like a fish, he’d probably be alive. But, you’ll pretend that by demonstrating that he wasn’t choked until death, that you’ve somehow exonerated the actions of the police. Of course, I’m on your ignore list, so I’ll just leave it at that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/238 "2014-12-24T04:38:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Resisting arrest started the boll rolling. And once the cops are attempting to arrest you and you’re physically resisting arrest, the cops do not “let up”. And are not supposed to “let up”. Do you think resisting arrest should be punished by death? I would say that they should use the minimum force necessary to achieve their goals. And not use forbidden choke holds. And not restrain a guy who is begging for air. I get it. You’re an law and order type. You want people to take their licks. That doesn’t make you bad. But I think you’re giving too much latitude here. As a practical matter, I don’t think the police should push as hard as they did in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/239 "2014-12-24T04:39:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If they didn’t choke him, he’d likely be alive. If they didn’t restrain him while he was gasping like a fish, he’d probably be alive. If he didn’t physically resist arrest, he’d likely be alive. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/240 "2014-12-24T04:43:37Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you think resisting arrest should be punished by death? No. But that’s a non-sequitur. They didn’t punish him with death. They used physical force to effect the arrest. The death was unintentional (and I bet in 999 cases out of 1000 wouldn’t have happened under the same circumstances with other people). > [@](#): > > I get it. You’re an law and order type. You want people to take their licks. That doesn’t make you bad. But I think you’re giving too much latitude here. As a practical matter, I don’t think the police should push as hard as they did in this situation. I am far from “law and order type”. I think a lot of laws and orders in this country are stupid, counterproductive, and should be removed so they can be laughed at when looking back in the future. But when the police is confronted with a 350lb freaking giant resisting arrest, I can see how using a chokehold to bring him down to the ground (by a guy about 1/3 of his size) may be useful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=13)