# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/241 "2014-12-24T04:56:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The policemen were not there to kick his ass. They were arresting him. He was resisting arrest. At the time he was saying that he can’t breathe, there was no chokehold anymore. He was lying on the ground, in prone position. He was “prone-positioned to death”. The coroner report says there was no throat damage. Do explain how that chokehold managed to kill him while it was not applied and didn’t cause any throat damage. At the time he died, there was a pile of policemen on top of him. Prior to that he was saying he couldn’t breathe (a widely-agreed cause of death). Please explain why his death was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/242 "2014-12-24T04:56:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. But that’s a non-sequitur. They didn’t punish him with death. They used physical force to effect the arrest. The death was unintentional (and I bet in 999 cases out of 1000 wouldn’t have happened under the same circumstances with other people). I’m sure that’s the case, since people are arrested roughly all the time and it doesn’t make the news. > [@](#): > > I am far from “law and order type”. I think a lot of laws and orders in this country are stupid, counterproductive, and should be removed so they can be laughed at when looking back in the future. We’ll make a liberal out of you yet. > [@](#): > > But when the police is confronted with a 400lb freaking giant resisting arrest, I can see how using a chokehold to bring him down to the ground (by a guy about 1/3 of his size) may be useful. It doesn’t matter if it’s useful. It matters if they are allowed to use it. And I’d prefer to defer to caution when a person is begging for air. They weren’t hunting down a serial killer. They were rousting a guy who was selling individual cigarettes. And certainly if he calmly submitted he’d be alive today, but if you watch that video, he didn’t violently resist. They grabbed his arm and he pulled it away saying _don’t touch me_. Then around a second later that cop jumped him with the chokehold. Then a mass of them piled on him while he’s begging for air. Watch it again and tell me honestly, that you see that as worthy of a choke hold. If you do, I think you’re just flat wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/243 "2014-12-24T04:59:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > At the time he died, there was a pile of policemen on top of him. At the time he died, he was in an ambulance on his way to the hospital. What is it with people and ignorance of facts in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/244 "2014-12-24T05:02:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m sure that’s the case, since people are arrested roughly all the time and it doesn’t make the news. Exactly. If in 999 cases the same methods are used to effect the arrest of someone resisting it (and yes, chokeholds are used by NYPD all the time, notwithstanding the ban, it was mentioned in the articles) and no one dies, and in one case, exactly same circumstances, the man dies - how can you say that is a crime and the cop should be put on trial? What about the other 999 cases - were they a crime and those cops should be on trial as well? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/245 "2014-12-24T05:09:45Z")
Certainly if Eric Garner had put a cop in a chokehold and the cop died, Garner would be charged with murder. If they were in opposite positions (which they were), why should the cop not be charged? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/246 "2014-12-24T05:21:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Certainly if Eric Garner had put a cop in a chokehold and the cop died, Garner would be charged with murder. Cops are given powers to do what non-cops can’t. Like arrest people, using physical force, if necessary. Non-cops cannot do that. For them that is a crime. Were you aware of that? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/247 "2014-12-24T05:35:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > At the time he died, he was in an ambulance on his way to the hospital. What is it with people and ignorance of facts in this thread? Have you seen this video? It shows him not breathing, or at least breathing very shallowly while cops take his pulse over and over. No attempt at CPR. He was pronounced dead at the hospital, but I’m betting if he wasn’t dead when he got into the ambulance, he was well on his way. Also: [Imgur: The magic of the Internet](http://imgur.com/80lWeUP) Here is the resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/248 "2014-12-24T05:44:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Have you seen this video? > > It shows him not breathing, or at least breathing very shallowly while cops take his pulse over and over. No attempt at CPR. How in the world do you know that he is “not breathing or at least breathing very shallowly” from a grainy, not in any way close-up video? There are no attempts at CPR because none of those police officers expect that the method that they used to arrest Garner would cause his death - as I said, I am sure they have done this lots of times before with other arrests with much different results. Here’s an MD’s perspective on the incident: [A Medical Perspective on the Garner Tragedy - American Thinker](http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/a_medical_perspective_on_the_garner_tragedy.html) . Yeah yeah, go ahead and pooh pooh the source - but it is an MD who seems to know what he’s talking about. In any case, there are multiple articles that confirm that he died in the ambulance. I am sure you can find them if you try. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/249 "2014-12-24T06:18:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How in the world do you know that he is “not breathing or at least breathing very shallowly” from a grainy, not in any way close-up video? Because I can’t see him breathing. If you’re gasping for breath, you move a lot. Like I said, I’m asthmatic, I know what it’s like to not be able to breathe. > [@](#): > > There are no attempts at CPR because none of those police officers expect that the method that they used to arrest Garner would cause his death - as I said, I am sure they have done this lots of times before with other arrests with much different results. Why are they checking his pulse several times? > [@](#): > > Here’s an MD’s perspective on the incident: [A Medical Perspective on the Garner Tragedy - American Thinker](http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/a_medical_perspective_on_the_garner_tragedy.html) . Yeah yeah, go ahead and pooh pooh the source - but it is an MD who seems to know what he’s talking about. Of course American Thinker will find the one guy who agrees with them. They’re ideologues. The needless shot at Obama as a race baiter doesn’t do much for his credibility for being objective. In any case, he’s likely right about the medical conditions that contributed to this. But his dismissing the neck compression as irrelevant aside from leverage is disputed by people who actually examined him. > [@](#): > > In any case, there are multiple articles that confirm that he died in the ambulance. I am sure you can find them if you try. I’ve read that police said that. But I haven’t seen anything more than that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/250 "2014-12-24T07:33:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you saying that you would have been physically unable to resist arrest if you could not breathe? > > Persuade who? The guy who murdered two NYPD cops simply because they were cops and believed that since cops choked Garner to death it would be OK kill any or all cops? Or maybe the NY, hammer-carrying, professor who thought he was justified to throw trashcans from a bridge onto the cops below because Garner had been choked to death? Or the six protesters who thought it was OK to kick and punch cops because they were arresting the hammer-carrying prof (aka one more criminal) and Garner had been choked to death? Yeah! And the protestors who attacked Pearl Harbor, shot JFK and flew the airplanes into the Twin Towers and… ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/251 "2014-12-24T11:00:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Exactly. If in 999 cases the same methods are used to effect the arrest of someone resisting it (and yes, chokeholds are used by NYPD all the time, notwithstanding the ban, it was mentioned in the articles) and no one dies, and in one case, exactly same circumstances, the man dies - how can you say that is a crime and the cop should be put on trial? What about the other 999 cases - were they a crime and those cops should be on trial as well? Hang on. There are around 75,000 elevators in NYC. All of them have inspection certificates. I assume some percentage of those certificates were completed after only perfunctory checks were done. If only 1 out of 1000 perfunctorily checked elevators kills someone, the inspector of that elevator should be put on trial. The other 999, while not necessarily put on trial, should certainly be retrained, vigorously criticized, and/or subject to professional sanctions. IMO, in the Eric Garner case the cops used excessively heavy-handed methods under the circumstances regardless of the fact that Garner died. The fact that he died illustrates the negative outcomes that become much more likely when cops are in the habit of using excessively heavy-handed methods. It’s also an example of negative outcomes that become more likely when you resist arrest, but the two are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/252 "2014-12-24T11:11:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Persuade who? The guy who murdered two NYPD cops simply because they were cops and believed that since cops choked Garner to death it would be OK kill any or all cops? Or maybe the NY, hammer-carrying, professor who thought he was justified to throw trashcans from a bridge onto the cops below because Garner had been choked to death? Or the six protesters who thought it was OK to kick and punch cops because they were arresting the hammer-carrying prof (aka one more criminal) and Garner had been choked to death? **doorhinge** , just know that we’re here for you during this difficult time. It sounds like the presence of some hooligans and anarchists among the protesters has really hit you hard. Just remember, the hammer-carrying professor can’t hurt you now. He was a very bad man but the police took him away and his hammer, too. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/253 "2014-12-24T14:58:02Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Here’s an example of what Obama has done to “try to diffuse what was building.” After the Ferguson grand jury decision came out, he said [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-obamas-remarks-on-ferguson-grand-jury-decision/2014/11/24/afc3b38e-744f-11e4-bd1b-03009bd3e984_story.html): I guess that’s something…not so sure diffusing the situation was his primary motivation or whether The Community heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/254 "2014-12-24T15:04:44Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I guess that’s something…not so sure diffusing the situation was his primary motivation or whether The Community heard it. What should O or H hypothetically have done, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/255 "2014-12-24T17:07:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The take down would stop when Garner was in handcuffs. Garner chose to resist arrest. Garner lost. Garner made the wrong choice. The bar for which you think excessive force can be used by the police is shockingly low. Have you [watched the video](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/dec/04/i-cant-breathe-eric-garner-chokehold-death-video)? You make it sound like Garner was throwing down with the police and going all maniac on them. That is about as far from the case as can be. Garner was protesting but as for “resisting arrest”? Barely if at all. He says, “Don’t touch me, don’t touch me.” Cop tries to grab his wrist and Garner pulls his arm away (in a perfectly normal manner…not violently breaking the officer’s grip and Garner has his hands up indicating he is NOT picking a fight). That’s it. That is the extent of his resistance. Go watch for yourself. Yet you for some reason think Garner deserved what he got. You and others can tap dance around this all you like and nitpick whether it was a chokehold or chest compression or asthma or being fat that did Garner in. We have established, unambiguously, that the ME said Garner died from a chokehold and chest compression with his health being a contributing (but secondary) cause. We have established, unambiguously, that in law it doesn’t matter if his asthma was what killed him after it was started by the chokehold/chest compression. It is without doubt that the polices’ actions were absolutely the cause of Garner’s death. If you or I did this to Garner we’d be up on murder charges. The ONLY question here is were the polices’ actions reasonable given the circumstances? You seem to think so. I don’t and I am scared at how low you set the bar for it to be reasonable for the police to pile on you and kill you even if your death was unintentional (which we also established wouldn’t save anyone else at trial). Especially when the crime in question is selling fucking loose cigarettes. Public enemy #1 right? (People in the video say he had just broken up a fight prior to this…the jerk…had it coming amiright?) ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/256 "2014-12-24T17:15:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here’s an MD’s perspective on the incident: [A Medical Perspective on the Garner Tragedy - American Thinker](http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/12/a_medical_perspective_on_the_garner_tragedy.html) . Yeah yeah, go ahead and pooh pooh the source - but it is an MD who seems to know what he’s talking about. I’m also an MD, and that MD is full of shit. More exactly, his description of the events leading to Garner’s death is likely accurate. As he points out, after Garner was already having breathing problems and was already on the ground, the officers put their weight on him to subdue and handcuff him. This doc argues that the cops’ actions are justified because a person of normal physiology and body habitus probably would have survived, and Garner died because he’s a big fat fuck. I ask, once again: if Garner had instead been a skinny little dude and the initial chokehold had snapped his neck, would we blame him for not having some meat on his bones? What if he were a little old lady and they just crushed her chest outright when they put their weight on her getting the cuffs on? After all, the average perp would have survived it. The cops have to learn to deal with people of varying body types. And they need to know that if a perp is showing signs of respiratory distress, the priority is to make sure that perp can breathe, not to make sure the cuffs are on him, even if it creates a possibility that he could get away. And more globally, the cops need to get better at de-escalating situations instead of escalating them. And this comes down to training: either good training that didn’t take, lack of training, or bad training. That’s why I don’t necessarily think anyone should have been indicted. There’s no question that the NYPD is to blame, but unless you can convince me that these officers were trained and subsequently encouraged to deal with this situation and egregiously deviated from that training, then indicting any one of them seems like throwing them under the bus for a systemic problem. But the blathering that it’s all Garner’s fault because he’s such a fatass is just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/257 "2014-12-24T17:20:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > T Garner was protesting but as for “resisting arrest”? Barely if at all. He says, “Don’t touch me, don’t touch me.” Cop tries to grab his wrist and Garner pulls his arm away (in a perfectly normal manner…not violently breaking the officer’s grip and Garner has his hands up indicating he is NOT picking a fight). That’s it. That is the extent of his resistance. Go watch for yourself. > It is without doubt that the polices’ actions were absolutely the cause of Garner’s death. If you or I did this to Garner we’d be up on murder charges. > > The ONLY question here is were the polices’ actions reasonable given the circumstances? Not allowing handcuffs to be put on pretty much defines “resisting arrest”. And note he’s a huge strong man, a _known violent criminal currently out on bail_.\* “You or I” dont have the legal authority to arrest someone in that sitrep. The police had the authority to do so. He resisted. Yes, they were reasonable. Perhaps over-zealous, I’ll grant. They could have been more careful, called paramedics earlier, etc. It was a tragedy. Garner did not deserve to die. But none of those police officers should be charged with Murder, either. ( I believe several had administrative punishments, one may lose him badge). \*\*Garner, 43, had history of more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980, on charges including assault and grand larceny,” Meyers notes that at the time of Garner’s death, he was “out on bail after being charged with illegally selling cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession, and false impersonation.\*” Read more at [Eric Garner Criminal Past Emerges: 30 Arrests In 34 Years, Including Assault - Inquisitr](http://www.inquisitr.com/1659026/eric-garner-criminal-past-emerges-30-arrests-in-34-years-including-assault/#7z44BHTKqPX8ZTDk.99) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/258 "2014-12-24T17:22:09Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > And they need to know that if a perp is showing signs of respiratory distress, the priority is to make sure that perp can breathe, not to make sure the cuffs are on him, even if it creates a possibility that he could get away. And more globally, the cops need to get better at de-escalating situations instead of escalating them. > > And this comes down to training: either good training that didn’t take, lack of training, or bad training. That’s why I don’t necessarily think anyone should have been indicted. There’s no question that the NYPD is to blame, but unless you can convince me that these officers were trained and subsequently encouraged to deal with this situation and egregiously deviated from that training, then indicting any one of them seems like throwing them under the bus for a systemic problem. > > But the blathering that it’s all Garner’s fault because he’s such a fatass is just ridiculous. I agree with all this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/259 "2014-12-24T17:27:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have established, unambiguously, that the ME said Garner died from a chokehold and chest compression with his health being a contributing (but secondary) cause. Why do you keep omitting the third cause that ME cited? I am just curious. ME said 3 things. You keep mentioning only two. Why? > [@](#): > > We have established, unambiguously, that in law it doesn’t matter if his asthma was what killed him after it was started by the chokehold/chest compression. Again, two things only. While the coroner said three. Why? > [@](#): > > It is without doubt that the polices’ actions were absolutely the cause of Garner’s death. If you or I did this to Garner we’d be up on murder charges. Sure, if you assaulted someone in the street and he died, you’d be up on murder charges. But the police have the power to arrest someone and to use physical force if necessary. You don’t. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/260 "2014-12-24T17:31:43Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Hang on. There are around 75,000 elevators in NYC. All of them have inspection certificates. I assume some percentage of those certificates were completed after only perfunctory checks were done. If only 1 out of 1000 perfunctorily checked elevators kills someone, the inspector of that elevator should be put on trial. The other 999, while not necessarily put on trial, should certainly be retrained, vigorously criticized, and/or subject to professional sanctions. > > IMO, in the Eric Garner case the cops used excessively heavy-handed methods under the circumstances regardless of the fact that Garner died. The fact that he died illustrates the negative outcomes that become much more likely when cops are in the habit of using excessively heavy-handed methods. It’s also an example of negative outcomes that become more likely when you resist arrest, but the two are not mutually exclusive. Great post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=14)