# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/281 "2014-12-24T19:17:06Z")
If you know what he means anymore, _mazeltov_. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/282 "2014-12-24T19:22:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t matter at all. The cops killed Garner because of the holds/pressure on his neck and chest and the position on the ground they put him in. It doesn’t sound any better or worse if the positioning on the ground is left out. Sure it does. That’s why people keep leaving it out. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/283 "2014-12-24T19:28:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I saw a video of a man who didn’t have to die. Died because he resisted arrest. I see a post by a man who has difficulty evaluating reality. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/284 "2014-12-24T19:53:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do you keep omitting the third cause that ME cited? I am just curious. ME said 3 things. You keep mentioning only two. Why? You kept editing the word “chokehold” out of quotes you made of the coroner’s report. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/285 "2014-12-24T19:55:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The second anyone “resists” (which by your definition is pulling your hand away) that’s it, all bets are off and the police can pile on. The police seem to define “resisting” as “anything you do”. They would charge a coma victim with resisting arrest for not actively cooperating. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/286 "2014-12-24T20:00:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > …It was an unintentional death, and was not a crime… Oh? So, if you cause an accident that results in somebody dying, there is no criminal sanction that fits that? Gosh, thought for sure there was… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/287 "2014-12-24T20:12:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure it does. That’s why people keep leaving it out. Sure it does what? It sounds better or worse? And how does this part make it better or worse? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/288 "2014-12-24T23:59:10Z")
Benghazi. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/289 "2014-12-25T00:07:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure it does. See, “prone-positioned to death” just doesn’t ring as well, does it? So, you’re saying that his fatal flaw was that he was prone to argue? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/290 "2014-12-25T13:24:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I saw a video of a man who didn’t have to die. Died because he resisted arrest. Your bar for what constitutes “resisting arrest” is frighteningly low. Particularly when to you that exceptionally modest “resistance” excuses police action that led to a man’s death. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/291 "2014-12-25T13:38:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I saw a video of a man who didn’t have to die. Died because he resisted arrest. We saw the video. He was arguing. BFD. You’re telling me the only way that a half dozen cops could put cuffs on him was to use a banned maneuver? They couldn’t have had a couple guys grab each arm and pull them behind his back for cuffing? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/292 "2014-12-26T16:01:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We saw the video. He was arguing. BFD. You’re telling me the only way that a half dozen cops could put cuffs on him was to use a banned maneuver? They couldn’t have had a couple guys grab each arm and pull them behind his back for cuffing? The grand jury had access to the actual police reports, the actual medical reports, eyewitness testimony, forensic evidence, and the videos. Based on the facts, the grand jury decided not to proceed with charges against police. The existing situation would have influenced the decision of which tactics should be employed to arrest Garner. And Garner was going to be arrested. There was a large glass window next to Garner. A wrong move could have resulted in the officers and/or Garner crashing thru the glass. Safety first. A group of gawkers had gathered to see what would happen next. Pepper spray could have spread to the crowd. Police were unaware of Garner’s poor health but a Taser jolt could have brought Garner to the ground. Neither the public, or the officers, were in imminent danger, so there was no immediate need to shoot Garner. The fact that Garner could clearly say, “I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe”, is a real good indicator that Garner could breathe. Garner was not being strangled. Once Garner was handcuffed, police attention turned to Garner’s deteriorating physical health. EMTs were called, and Garner was still alive, if not exactly kicking, when he was placed on the gurney. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/293 "2014-12-26T16:52:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He was killed by the cops. Maybe their actions were justified, but the cops definitely killed Garner – just as if it were a bunch of guys dressed like cops who attacked Garner with identical video. No. Make that, NO. The cops have authority to arrest people. Guys just dressed as cops don’t. Similarly cops have the authority to physically impose an arrest when the subject is non-compliant. This is true if regardless of the underlying reason for the arrest. Again, guys “dressed like cops” have no such authority. In fact, they’d be breaking several laws doing what you described. I did not see the cops as over zealous. In fact, they repeatedly try to talk him into complying. Since he refuses, the cops then have both the right and responsibility to forcibly arrest him. Now he’s a big guy, so the cops took measures they often take in bringing the guy to the ground. So, far, no cop did anything wrong. (The arm around the neck was not the illegal chokehold that people eager to avoid reality like to insist it is.) Once he’s down, they pin him so he can be handcuffed without it turning into a fight. Again, this is SOP. The problem is that Garner had some underlying medical conditions that caused this standard policing measures to have an extraordinary outcome. Did the guy deserve to die? Absolutely not. He actually came off to me as a likable guy. But the cops do not deserve the treatment they’ve been getting. They have a difficult job to do. And when that job involves arresting a guy the size of Garner, one that can be very dangerous. Once Garner refused to comply with the arrest, they took the precautions cops take everyday. Nothing more. It really sucks that he died. But if he had complied with the arrest he would be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/294 "2014-12-26T18:00:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > …The fact that Garner could clearly say, “I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe”… Eleven times? You counted, it was eleven? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/295 "2014-12-26T18:29:32Z")
Here are two statements. 1. The cops didn’t do anything that merited criminal indictment. 2. The cops acted in a preposterously heavy-handed manner and showed a lack of humanity amid Eric Garner’s 11 pleas (by doorhinge’s count) for mercy, which in combination resulted in them killing him. These two statements are consistent. Yet some posters in this thread seem to think that in order to mount a vigorous defense of the first statement, they need to tear down the second one, too. This fundamentally cruel mindset does a disservice to their cause–an overshoot analogous to the “we want dead cops” crowd on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/296 "2014-12-26T19:02:56Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Here are two statements. > > 1. The cops didn’t do anything that merited criminal indictment. > 2. The cops acted in a preposterously heavy-handed manner and showed a lack of humanity amid Eric Garner’s 11 pleas (by doorhinge’s count) for mercy, which in combination resulted in them killing him. > > These two statements are consistent. Yet some posters in this thread seem to think that in order to mount a vigorous defense of the first statement, they need to tear down the second one, too. This fundamentally cruel mindset does a disservice to their cause–an overshoot analogous to the “we want dead cops” crowd on the other side. I more or less agree, but Id take out "_preposterously_ ". Remember Garner was a known violent criminal, who was then out on bail. Not to mention a really big guy. So “heavy-handed” and "lack of humanity " I would agree to. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/297 "2014-12-26T19:40:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Eleven times? You counted, it was eleven? The question is, “Why didn’t you count?” That’s the number that has been reported by many media outlets, politicians, pundits, and internet posters. _Then, shalt thou count to eleven. No more. No less. Eleven shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be eleven. Twelve shalt thou not count, neither count thou ten, excepting that thou then proceed to eleven. Thirteen is right out. Once at the number eleven, being the eleventh number to be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it._ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/298 "2014-12-26T20:31:23Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Here are two statements. > > 1. The cops didn’t do anything that merited criminal indictment. > 2. The cops acted in a preposterously heavy-handed manner and showed a lack of humanity amid Eric Garner’s 11 pleas (by doorhinge’s count) for mercy, which in combination resulted in them killing him. > > These two statements are consistent. Yet some posters in this thread seem to think that in order to mount a vigorous defense of the first statement, they need to tear down the second one, too. This fundamentally cruel mindset does a disservice to their cause–an overshoot analogous to the “we want dead cops” crowd on the other side. Here’s the thing, the heavy-handedness you allude to in SOP when it comes to actually making an arrest on a person who does not want to be arrested, particularly when that individual poses a threat to the police. And with Garner’s size, he definitely did that. So, it really isn’t heavy-handed compared to similar situations. It’s pretty SOP. I As far as a lack of humanity, my guess is that the cops simply thought he was bullshitting, saying whatever he could to just have them go easier on him. Certainly wouldn’t be the first time that might have happened, I’m sure. But if you look at their behavior after he was completely subdued, I don’t know how you conclude that the cops lacked humanity. What went down sucked. I’m sad garner died. But that doesn’t mean that the cops did anything wrong. Seems to me like they did the same things cops probably did a few thousand times last year. Unfortunately for Garner, his body was unable to withstand it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/299 "2014-12-27T08:53:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The question is, “Why didn’t you count?” That’s the number that has been reported by many media outlets, politicians, pundits, and internet posters…\* But we’ve told you time and time again, over and over and over, don’t be repetitious and redundant! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/300 "2014-12-27T19:40:09Z")
Back, if we may, to the ambushed cops. Yes, it sucks that they got killed. Yes, we all feel bad for their families. But these were not the greatest human beings since Jesus, as you might think from the endless endless lauds and honor they are getting. Just two guys that got killed doing their job. Tragic and senseless, but the recreational grief is on overdrive right now. And the police union is acting like Grade A USDA Choice Select Assholes right now, getting all pissy with the mayor for not proclaiming that the cops that murdered the guy for selling cigarettes were true natioinal heroes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=16)