# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/341 "2014-12-30T13:41:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > {…} _NYPD sources confirm that Eric Garner was a player in an organized crime cigarette smuggling syndicate…_ _Player_ the official legal definition, not to be confused with it’s colloquial usage. We shan’t consider the meanings of _organized_, _smuggling_, or _syndicate_ for now. :rolleyes: CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/342 "2014-12-30T17:35:12Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It was declared a homicide by the coroner. > People are getting just a little sick and tired of this “blame the victim” bullshit. YOU made claims, you prove them. “Someone else said” as your cite is bullshit. > > . Which is meaningless. No one thinks it was suicide. :rolleyes: Not blaming him. I did. I quote cites, gave links, etc. Every claim I made I supported. Then you wanted more info. No more info is available. Again, not blaming the victim. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/343 "2014-12-30T17:55:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Possibly/probably for both. \*Psssst. Your bias is showing. \* Possibly?! probably?!! HA! That’s some funny shit right there. And I am finding extra entertainment value in seeing how invested you are in being able to say, “The cops killed Eric Garner”, in spite of the facts. But hey, maybe my guffaw was premature. Can you share with me any cite at all that indicates that his asthma and obesity did NOT contribute to his death that day? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/344 "2014-12-30T18:05:06Z")
If the cops had put a bullet or two into him, his general state of poor health would be contributing factor in his survival or demise. You are stating the bleeding obvious as though it were some sort of revelation. It is possible, of course, given the marvelous flexibility of that word, that Mr. Garner would have dropped dead of a heart attack without being so much as touched. Possible. But it ain’t real likely, now, is it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/345 "2014-12-30T18:19:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If the cops had put a bullet or two into him, his general state of poor health would be contributing factor in his survival or demise. You are stating the bleeding obvious as though it were some sort of revelation. > > It is possible, of course, given the marvelous flexibility of that word, that Mr. Garner would have dropped dead of a heart attack without being so much as touched. Possible. But it ain’t real likely, now, is it? Can you have someone translate this from Incoherent into a a more common tongue used on the SDMB? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/346 "2014-12-30T18:25:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you have someone translate this from Incoherent into a a more common tongue used on the SDMB? > > Thanks! Sorry, I don’t speak your native language of Retard. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/347 "2014-12-30T18:38:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sorry, I don’t speak your native language of Retard. Yuk! Sorry I don’t speak your native language of Super Retard. Yuk! Yuk!! Nice, huh? Perhaps next time you can make your retort be either funny or original. But that’s not where the smart money is. Oh, forgot one thing. You’re not **Elucidator**. You can decide if the fact should be viewed as a compliment or an insult. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/348 "2014-12-30T18:55:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But it just doesn’t seem like all these people who criticize cops are very eager to go and become the shining examples that other cops should follow. Strange, isn’t it? Not really. Not when you consider what happens to people who join the force and try to be “shining examples”. Ask Frank Serpico, Adrian Schoolcraft, and [a whole bunch of other examples](https://www.facebook.com/honestcops) how that worked out for them. That’s one of the problems - knowing the pervasive culture, what kind of people are choosing to enter law enforcement? > [@magellan01](#): > > Can you share with me any cite at all that indicates that his asthma and obesity did NOT contribute to his death that day? You’re asking the wrong questions. His condition doesn’t absolve the police and emt workers from not following protocol in that situation. The police are trained about the risks of positional asphyxia - _especially_ for obese people - and are supposed to sit or stand the person up after they are cuffed. That didn’t happen. Why? The emt worker never checked his airway or administered oxygen - this is standard procedure when finding someone in an unresponsive condition. Why didn’t that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/349 "2014-12-30T19:06:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yuk! > > Sorry I don’t speak your native language of Super Retard. > > Yuk! Yuk!! > > Nice, huh? > > Perhaps next time you can make your retort be either funny or original. But that’s not where the smart money is. > > Oh, forgot one thing. You’re not **Elucidator**. You can decide if the fact should be viewed as a compliment or an insult. Look, it is apparent you speak some silly dialect where the word “homicide” means “a guy died because he was fat and not because another person did something to him.” I don’t know how to communicate when you don’t understand the plain meaning of English words. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/350 "2014-12-30T19:09:41Z")
Gee, childish name-calling. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/351 "2014-12-30T19:24:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > … I am finding extra entertainment value in seeing how invested you are in being able to say, “The cops killed Eric Garner”, in spite of the facts. > > But hey, maybe my guffaw was premature. Can you share with me any cite at all that indicates that his asthma and obesity did NOT contribute to his death that day? So you are capable of _nuance_, using a 3-syllable word like “contribute.” Did the cops who restrained his breathing until he was dead also “contribute” to his death? Small minds look for simple answers. I could say that Kim Kardashian killed Eric Garner – if she had only called him up and asked him for a date that day, he’d have missed his “appointment in Samarra” altogether. But it seems more reasonable to blame those cops … and also retarded right-wingers whose inhumane attitudes foster bad cop behavior. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/352 "2014-12-30T19:31:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Did the cops who restrained his breathing until he was dead also “contribute” to his death? Yes. That has been my position all along. A confluence of factors caused his death. One of them was the actions of the police. I really don’t see what’s so hard about this. It only gets hard if one is trying to create the impression, “Cops are racist and out of control. They kill poor, innocent black people all the time. Look, they killed Eric Garner!” And that’s because lies are harder than the truth. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/353 "2014-12-30T19:46:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. That has been my position all along. A confluence of factors caused his death. One of them was the actions of the police. I really don’t see what’s so hard about this. So here’s an easy question: Are the police culpable for their part in causing his death or not? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/354 "2014-12-30T20:16:04Z")
> [@camille](#): > > So here’s an easy question: Are the police culpable for their part in causing his death or not? That’s really not easy at all. Depends what you mean. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Culpability, or being culpable, is a measure of the degree to which an agent, such as a person, can be held morally or legally responsible for action and inaction. Culpability marks the dividing line between moral evil, like murder, for which someone may be held responsible and natural evil, like earthquakes, for which no one can be held responsible. Do I think they bear some responsibility for the death. Yes, as I’ve said. Do I think what they did was “evil”? No, not in the least. Do I think their behavior was criminal. No, not in the least. What flavor of “culpable” did you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/355 "2014-12-30T21:49:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s really not easy at all. Depends what you mean. From Wikipedia: > > Do I think they bear some responsibility for the death. Yes, as I’ve said. Do I think what they did was “evil”? No, not in the least. Do I think their behavior was criminal. No, not in the least. What flavor of “culpable” did you have in mind? Why didn’t you quote the legal definition from your cite? Why did you avoid answering my previous questions about the deviation from protocol by the police and emt? As I posted previously, the police were trained to avoid the risk of positional asphyxia by not leaving someone in a prone position after securing them in handcuffs. They could see he was obese, he _told_ them he was experiencing respiratory distress, subsequently became unresponsive, and they _still_ didn’t reposition him for several minutes. Then the emt arrived and ignored protocol and did not check airway or administer oxygen. You want to debate the finer point of whether those actions were _reckless_ or _negligent_, that’s fine; I agree it is not cut and dried in a legal sense. But there should be consequences for those actions regardless of intent. Why is that so difficult for you to acknowledge? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/356 "2014-12-30T21:57:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The guy that the cops murdered for selling cigarettes was not violently resisting by any stretch of the imagination. He was merely protesting the arrest and certainly did not deserve his fate. Murder usually requires intent. Are you saying that they wanted to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/357 "2014-12-30T22:04:39Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Quoted for truth. > > The NYPD has ~34,000 uniformed officers. If 5% are brutes who should not be allowed in their position, that’s 1,700 officers over 5 boroughs (counties). But the police are indoctrinated with such an “us vs. them” mentality that they do not make serious efforts to weed out that 5%. Or 4%. Or 10%. Or whatever the actual number is. We’ll never know because they are not accountable, and our past two mayors let them keep their dirty laundry as closed off from the public as possible. Of course they are getting upset now that a new mayor wants to open up the books just a little from what’s been going on for the last 2 decades. > > Sadly, appeals to fear work even better than appeals to emotion, and that is the nail that the PBA chief is hammering. About 80% of NYPD are what you would call good cops. About 80% of that’s left are on a power trip. About 80% of what’s left are bullies and the rest are indistinguishable from criminals with a badge. The problem is that police solidarity (AKA blue wall) insulates taht last little sliver from accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/358 "2014-12-30T22:08:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The grand jury called it no true bill. Guess whose opinion matters? You realize that justifiable homicide or negligent homicide is still homicide, right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/359 "2014-12-30T22:17:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The “I can’t breathe” stuff is such a nonsense sideshow… by the logic used by some of the idiots here, every human who has ever uttered “I can’t breathe” was lying, and not, you know, trying to give some short indication that they were having difficulty breathing. Apparently saying “I can’t breathe” is the equivalent of saying “I am lying right now” Some sort of oxymoron ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/360 "2014-12-30T22:22:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Homicide” just means it is not a suicide or “natural causes”. It is a classification. Has nothing to do with whether he was “choked to death”. I’m pretty sure it means that one person was killed by another person. Someone driving off a cliff by accident is not homicide or a suicide or natural causes, its just an accident that was not caused by another person. It was probably an accident and I don’t think anyone wanted to kill the guy but that cop killed Eric Garner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=19)