# The ambushed cops: So, it's all Obama's fault now? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867 "2014-12-22T00:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/361 "2014-12-30T22:27:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > fivethirtyeight is wrong. They are citing federal grand juries, and this is a state grand jury. Yes, it is incredibly rare for a grand jury to not indict. Not so for a state grand jury. It is exceedingly rare for a grand jury not to indict when there is a corpse and it is clear who turn a living human being into the corpse… unless the killer is a cop. There may be several reasons for this. DA’s might press charges against cops where they would not press charges against a civilian to satisfy political pressure. DAs might not prosecute cops as vigorously as they would a civilian. Grand Juries might be less inclined to indict cops because there is a societal bias. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/362 "2014-12-30T22:40:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Use just enough force to complete the task. Choking people to death and shooting unarmed civilians is not acceptable. We empower the police with the police power, which includes the justifiable use of force. Putting aside that it was against NYPD policy to use a choke hold, I didn’t see excessive use of force in that video (assuming arrest was warranted in the first place). Eric Garner was probably an unfortunate accident but his death is still difficult to defend. Michael Brown’s death is much easier to defend. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/363 "2014-12-30T22:44:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is there no beginning to your intelligence? He would not have died without the choke hold. He died, therefore he was choked to death. No amount of childish Brickeresque word parsing from your feeble mind can change that. He wouldn’t have died without the asthma or heart condition either. There are several “but for” causes of his death. Can we at least agree that it was not murder and was likely negligent homicide. The sort of thing you can get sued for but not go to jail for? If I punch a guy in a barfight and he dies because he has a weak blood vessel in his brain, I shouldn’t go to jail for it but I can get sued for it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/364 "2014-12-30T22:46:37Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Would any of the cop idolizers on this thread persist in such a demented nitpick if the victim was an asthmatic overweight cop and the perpetrators were five black guys piling on him? Did we invest those 5 black guys with the police power? I think our ridiculous levels of warrior worship has bled into police worship but there is a HUGE difference between cops using force to carry out their duties as policemen and criminal using force to beat up a cop. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/365 "2014-12-30T22:49:08Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > According to actor James Woods, [Al Sharpton is responsible](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/james-woods-calls-sharpton-disgusting-pig-twitter-article-1.2053262) for the murder of two NYC policemen. Apparently it was a huge conspiracy. > > Funny how conservatives stop lecturing everyone about 'personal responsibility" when they can score some sickeningly cheap political points. I hate Al Sharpton but he is about as responsible for the death of those cops as Pat Robertson is for the murder of abortion doctors and gay men. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/366 "2014-12-30T23:42:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is exceedingly rare for a grand jury not to indict when there is a corpse and it is clear who turn a living human being into the corpse… unless the killer is a cop. Cite? For a state grand jury of course? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/367 "2014-12-30T23:43:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes. That has been my position all along. A confluence of factors caused his death. One of them was the actions of the police. I really don’t see what’s so hard about this. What’s so hard is that, according to this logic, if muggers throw a fat old man to the ground after he resisted when they took his wallet, and the fat old man dies because sometimes fat old men die when they are thrown to the ground, you’d say that the muggers didn’t kill the fat old man. That defies common sense and common usage of language. If they were muggers dressed like cops but the video was identical, would you deny that the muggers killed Garner? And you haven’t yet answered this question: if muggers throw a fat old man to the ground after he resists, and the fat old man dies, would you deny that the muggers killed the fat old man? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/368 "2014-12-30T23:53:40Z")
I will admit that I haven’t read this entire thread. I just wanted to pop in and say: “Fuck yeah it’s Obama’s fault.” Sorry I didn’t read the whole thing, but it’s like, 6 pages. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/369 "2014-12-31T08:40:35Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Why didn’t you quote the legal definition from your cite? Why did you avoid answering my previous questions about the deviation from protocol by the police and met? Because I didn’t know if you were asking a strictly legal question or not. That’s why I supplied a definition that gives the greatest context that I could find. And that is also why I asked how you were using the word. If you don’t find that the most sensible thing to do, then I can’t really help you. > [@camille](#): > > As I posted previously, the police were trained to avoid the risk of positional asphyxia by not leaving someone in a prone position after securing them in handcuffs. They could see he was obese, he _told_ them he was experiencing respiratory distress, subsequently became unresponsive, and they _still_ didn’t reposition him for several minutes. Then the emt arrived and ignored protocol and did not check airway or administer oxygen. > > You want to debate the finer point of whether those actions were _reckless_ or _negligent_, that’s fine; I agree it is not cut and dried in a legal sense. But there should be consequences for those actions regardless of intent. Why is that so difficult for you to acknowledge? Who is not acknowledging it? I said repeatedly that the police bear some responsibility. You want to include the degree to which they didn’t follow protocol, fine with me. I agree that that should be looked into as well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/370 "2014-12-31T08:41:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > About 80% of NYPD are what you would call good cops. About 80% of that’s left are on a power trip. About 80% of what’s left are bullies and the rest are indistinguishable from criminals with a badge. > > The problem is that police solidarity (AKA blue wall) insulates taht last little sliver from accountability. I like this. Well put. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/371 "2014-12-31T08:46:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What’s so hard is that, according to this logic, if muggers throw a fat old man to the ground after he resisted when they took his wallet, and the fat old man dies because sometimes fat old men die when they are thrown to the ground, you’d say that the muggers didn’t kill the fat old man. > > That defies common sense and common usage of language. > > If they were muggers dressed like cops but the video was identical, would you deny that the muggers killed Garner? And you haven’t yet answered this question: if muggers throw a fat old man to the ground after he resists, and the fat old man dies, would you deny that the muggers killed the fat old man? If it has dawned on you yet, your analogy using non-cops to lay hands on people simply doesn’t work. Another poster or two pointed this out, but I guess your passion in getting to, “The cops killed Kenny!” (aka Eric Garner) immunizes you from logic, huh? Fighting the good fight and all, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/372 "2014-12-31T12:51:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it has dawned on you yet, your analogy using non-cops to lay hands on people simply doesn’t work. Another poster or two pointed this out, but I guess your passion in getting to, “The cops killed Kenny!” (aka Eric Garner) immunizes you from logic, huh? Fighting the good fight and all, right? You’ve failed to convince me that when a fat, unhealthy man is grabbed, put in various breathing-restricted positions, brought to the ground, and dies, that whether or not the men who did this killed him depends on their occupation. **Terr** is right on this one, and you are wrong. I’ve answered your questions – yes, his health contributed to his death. Why won’t you answer mine? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/373 "2014-12-31T13:24:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it has dawned on you yet, your analogy using non-cops to lay hands on people simply doesn’t work. Another poster or two pointed this out, but I guess your passion in getting to, “The cops killed Kenny!” (aka Eric Garner) immunizes you from logic, huh? Fighting the good fight and all, right? Dude… you’re missing **iiandyiiii** ’s point by a country mile. If police strike a man who’s resisting arrest in the face and break his nose, or if a mugger walks up to someone in the street and breaks his nose, sure the _legality_ of these actions may differ, but in both cases you would say the striker broke someone’s nose. That’s uncontroversial. Now, consider that instead of nose-breaking, the action is chokehold followed by prone positioning that leads to complications resulting in death. If a mugger walked up to a fat old man in the street and did to him exactly what the cops did to Garner, and he emerged from the encounter a corpse, you would (presumably?) be ok characterizing that event as “the mugger killed the fat old man.” If so, consistency should compel you to agree that the cops who chokeholded and prone-positioned Garner leading to complications resulting in his death indeed killed Garner. Not necessarily murdered him, but killed him, as reflected in the death being classified as a homicide. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/374 "2014-12-31T14:01:14Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Dude… you’re missing **iiandyiiii** ’s point by a country mile. If police strike a man who’s resisting arrest in the face and break his nose, or if a mugger walks up to someone in the street and breaks his nose, sure the _legality_ of these actions may differ, but in both cases you would say the striker broke someone’s nose. That’s uncontroversial. And I’ll add that even if someone’s nose is very delicate because they just had surgery, the striker still broke their nose (even if the prior surgery was a contributing factor), whether the striker was a cop or not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/375 "2014-12-31T15:07:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve failed to convince me that when a fat, unhealthy man is grabbed, put in various breathing-restricted positions, brought to the ground, and dies, that whether or not the men who did this killed him depends on their occupation. You have utterly failed to convince me that it makes sense to say that the cops killed garner when there were underlying causes to his death that were not the result of police action. Contrast this with the Michael Brown incident. There, the cop(s) did, in fact, kill Michael Brown. Tell me this. Which statement do you think is more accurate: A) The cops killed Eric Garner. B) Eric Garner died because of a confluence of factors, which if you removed any one, Garner would likely be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/376 "2014-12-31T15:10:21Z")
Gotta go with A). Were it not for the cops, Garner would be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/377 "2014-12-31T15:30:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Gotta go with A). Were it not for the cops, Garner would be alive today. Wow. You can’t even copy and paste. Impressive! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/378 "2014-12-31T15:33:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You have utterly failed to convince me that it makes sense to say that the cops killed garner when there were underlying causes to his death that were not the result of police action. Contrast this with the Michael Brown incident. There, the cop(s) did, in fact, kill Michael Brown. > > Tell me this. Which statement do you think is more accurate: > > A) The cops killed Eric Garner. > B) Eric Garner died because of a confluence of factors, which if you removed any one, Garner would likely be alive today. Definitely A. Much more concise. Further, it’s logical in the same way that “the muggers killed the fat old man” is logical. B might be true too, but A is more concise and much more in keeping with the common usage of the word “kill”. So I think A is more accurate. If it were muggers dressed like cops that killed Garner, would you choose A or B? I’ve answered multiple questions from you. Will you please answer a single question from me? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/379 "2014-12-31T15:59:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Definitely A. Much more concise. Further, it’s logical in the same way that “the muggers killed the fat old man” is logical. B might be true too, but A is more concise and much more in keeping with the common usage of the word “kill”. So I think A is more accurate. I didn’t ask which is more concise. I asked which is more accurate, so the beginning of your answer is just fuzz. The fact that you think A is MORE ACCURATE is truly insane. Especially when you’ve already admitted that his obesity and asthma were contributing factors! Unless you’d like now to access the weasality built in to your “possibly/probably”. :rolleyes: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it were muggers dressed like cops that killed Garner, would you choose A or B? > > I’ve answered multiple questions from you. Will you please answer a single question from me? I did. It’s a gloriously inapt analogy and I have no interest in furthering its miserable life one breath more. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867/380 "2014-12-31T16:02:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I didn’t ask which is more concise. I asked which is more accurate, so the beginning of your answer is just fuzz. The fact that you think A is MORE ACCURATE is truly insane. Especially when you’ve already admitted that his obesity and asthma were contributing factors! Unless you’d like now to access the weasality built in to your “possibly/probably”. :rolleyes: > > I did. It’s a gloriously inapt analogy and I have no interest in furthering its miserable life one breath more. I’m asking you if muggers take down a fat old man and he dies, did they kill him? Why are you so afraid to answer this question? I’m sure this has happened in human history… in incidents such as this, is it correct or not to state that the muggers killed him? Again, **Terr** is right on this one. Muggers killed the fat old man. The cops killed Garner. In both cases, the poor health of the dead person contributed, and made it much, much easier for the muggers/cops to kill him by accident. The poor health made it _more likely_ that those actions would kill the fat old man/Garner. It was not on purpose – the muggers didn’t mean to kill the fat old man, and the cops didn’t mean to kill Garner, but in both cases, they killed a man by mistake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ambushed-cops-so-its-all-obamas-fault-now/707867.md?page=20)